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35mm Glossy Nike Look


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#1 Rolfe Klement

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 07:28 PM

Dear All

What would be your advice on how to get this look on 5218 (Kodak 500T colour stock.)
I have never tried to get a look like this from colour stock before...

Posted Image

I can go through Telecine but would prefer to do as much as possible in camera. I am thinking a nice big soft toplight slightly to the right. Smooth good make up, a dark floor and dark background are very important to seperate talent from background.

What would be your advice regarding lighting, filters, beauty filters, lenses, T stops etc?

thanks

Rolfe
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#2 Michael Nash

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 08:02 PM

The first thing I notice is that the tonal reproduction in the still is very different from what you get with 5218. '18 sees very well into the shadows (too much sometimes), and the natural bounce from the wood floor would "fill" the model more than what you see here. Not a whole lot you can do about that in camera, except maybe overexpose or push the film. Color negative never gives quite the same tonal response as B&W negative anyway, especially in those inky blacks. I think telecine is where you'll have the most control.

The image looks pretty crisp but with smooth skintones, so I wouldn't go too crazy with diffusion filters. Maybe use a warming filter or warming gel on the key light to smooth out the skin color, if you're going for a B&W final image. I don't think I'd go as strong as a yellow filter, since it looks like her skin tones are properly rendered and there's still some separation between the tone of her skin and her hair.

I think lighting-wise you're on the right track, but you may want to keep the key pretty close to maximize falloff and keep the contrast up.

Maybe pick a slower film...
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#3 Michael Nash

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 08:25 PM

Oh, and lenses! Use really sharp ones... ;)

I guess I'd prefer to keep the image as sharp and contrasty in camera as possible, and use lighting and makeup to create the "softness."
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#4 Rolfe Klement

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 05:40 AM

thanks for the replies!

I am thinking of using a large tungsten dedo 7ft octodome with full eggcrate.

I agree the tonal issue is going to be key - I wonder what things i can do to get it as close as possible

thanks

Rolfe
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#5 Rolfe Klement

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 05:44 AM

thanks for the replies!

I am thinking of using a large tungsten dedo 7ft octodome with full eggcrate.

I agree the tonal issue is going to be key - I wonder what things i can do to get it as close as possible

thanks

Rolfe
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#6 Freya Black

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 09:34 AM

Looking at the picture, I would want to shoot this on Plus-X negative, even if you have to push it a couple of stops, however I can understand there may well be a ton of reasons why that isn't possible (esp in the u.k.)
I've seen a fair few films shot on desaturated colour negative which I felt looked kind of awful compared to the real thing but they were all prints in the cinema so it could be that this really hampered things. In telecine it might be possible to get a lot closer to the look of B&W, I don't know.

PLEASE, PLEASE post your results when you do shoot this! I'm really intrested to see how you get on and to hear about what things were difficult, what things worked out right and even the stuff that went disastrously wrong if there are such things and you feel up to sharing them.

It looks like you have quite a task ahead of you and I would love to learn from your experience on this!

love

Freya

thanks for the replies!

I am thinking of using a large tungsten dedo 7ft octodome with full eggcrate.

I agree the tonal issue is going to be key - I wonder what things i can do to get it as close as possible

thanks

Rolfe


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#7 Joseph Zizzo

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 09:50 AM

for such a contrasty look, i would stay away from 5218, personally. you could use 5222, if you wanted to go with a b&w stock, but the b&w stocks are older and therefore not very sharp, compared with newer stocks. i would use fuji eterna vivid 160 if you are going tungsten, or fuji 64D if you are going daylight. i have been using them alot in the past 2 years for that kind of result, they are just naturally more contrasty negatives. for me, it is always a struggle to try to get this look out of a vision2 stock, both in camera and in telecine, unless is i am dealing with a low light, night-time, very low-key scenes. it seems like the emulsion is just not engineered for it. with the two fuji stocks i mentioned, you will get a naturally more contrasty look, and controlling spill and bounceback, as michael alluded to, will not be so much of an issue.

i think you are right on track witht the octodome. you nees a large, soft source like that, or a chimera, and the grid or crate is essential for control. but if it is just a single subject as in the reference photo, you might want to go a little smaller on the source, like 4', say. this will give you the quality of light you are looking for, and will allow you to control the light more easily than with a larger source. try to find that sweet spot for the source, where it is close enough to fall off nicely on the subject, but not so close that it balsts the floor, or that you can't get your cutters in.

have fun!

ps - for a look at an example of that fuji eterna vivid, refer to the lexus spot at the linked website below. different application, but you get the idea:
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#8 Wendell_Greene

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 01:58 PM

Joe, would you mind commenting on your approach to filming the Jesse McCartney "She's No You" music video that you DP'd for Sanji?

I've always admired your cinematography on that video. Thanks
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#9 Rolfe Klement

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 06:12 PM

Once again - thanks to all for excellent advice. We had the greenlight and we are filming with the same girl as in the still image - which makes it even easier since she has great skin.

Mike mentioned something about using a filter closer to skin colour on the dedolight to soften out skin without using an over-exposure or push method - can you explain it further and cover risks etc

Joe- as Wendell mentioned your Jesse M (And Floetry) videos achieve a beautiful look in B+W. Can you give us an overview of how you did it?

thanks

Rolfe
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#10 Wendell_Greene

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 06:38 PM

Rolfe, will your budget allow you to do touch up/beauty work in Flame, Inferno, etc.?
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#11 Rolfe Klement

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 07:51 PM

no budget for flame | inferno. TK is taking most of the post budget.

but we might be able to go into Combustion using DPX 1080P files - but this would be for me and due to the timeframes would not be part of the deliverable. I have done loads of SFX work using combustion before. It is not ideal but many things can be done - just takes longer <_<

I am thinking of
  • getting the best talent I can (the girl in the photo)
  • giving the Fuji 160T a go,
  • then getting my best lens (40mm HS zeiss) at its best stop (about T3)
  • spending the remainder of the budget on repainting the location dark (if need be)
  • getting the makeup smooth and translucent
  • dedo light (maybe with a 5ft dome) egg crate in optimum position.
Thanks

Rolfe
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#12 Michael Nash

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 08:35 PM

Mike mentioned something about using a filter closer to skin colour on the dedolight to soften out skin without using an over-exposure or push method - can you explain it further and cover risks etc


It's a basic black and white trick; a flesh-colored filter or lighting will smooth out color differences within that color range (and darken complementary colors).

Here's a full color image followed by a simply desaturated version (I chose a picture of a woman with less-than-perfect skin to illustrate):
screenshot4.jpeg

Here's the same image warmed up, followed by its desaturated version:
screenshot5.jpeg

Here I've given the same gamma correction to both to emulate a more convincing B&W neg. look.
On the left is the normal version desaturated; on the right is the warmed one:
Snapshot_2007_11_16_17_10_39_copy.jpg

I should mention that the effect is much more dramatic when viewing a larger/higher res image. I kept these pics small for easy viewing.

The trade-off is that it throws the rendition of other colors out of whack, which could become an issue if you're modeling specific colored clothing or products. Note how the red flower becomes much lighter, and if the sweater had been a more saturated blue it would have appeared darker. Same is true for bluish or purplish skin blemishes (not a problem with your model, I'm sure); they can actually appear darker. This is also important for your makeup artist, if they're planning on using any shades that are complementary (opposite) to your warming gel or filter.

However, I did all of this using the very basic tools in Preview, all of which you can do -- and then some -- in telecine...

http://www.gdargaud....BlackWhite.html
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#13 Joseph Zizzo

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 10:37 PM

you don't need inferno for such a simple concept! just trust your eye, it got you the gig... and this gig is all about photography, not post effects. let your instincts guide you though the shoot, and the telecine, and you will get what you are after.

to answer the questions about "floetry" and "jesse mccartney" (and thank you for the kind words): in the "floetry" video, we shot on b&w stock - 5222 - and i used a battery of filters, depending on light, location, subject. i don't have the notes on that job here with me now, but i think the scenes i liked the best, like the interior of the cafe, were shot with the medium orange. the reds are a little too heavy for people with dark skin, as i remember - i think they worked best for dark-skinned subjects in direct sunlight. for me, most of the time the yellows didn't do enough. and while i am at it, i must give an enormous amount of credit to director, marcus raboy, for seeing the wisdom in shooting b&w neg. the job was all daylight and we moved so fast we couldn't really spend much time lighting, so i let him know i felt 5222 was really the best choice to get a contrasty, street-photog kind of look. he realized that was the case early, got behind the idea and made it happen. smart guy...

on "jesse mccartney", we shot 5218. that video, a night exterior, is the perfect situation for a vison2 stock, whether finishing in b&w or color, imo: low-light night scene, exterior, with far away backgrounds and lots of existing light to play around in. i basically just had a couple of 80' condors, each with a big fresnel in it, and probably with a 4x4 opal on it. we used one to shoot, the gaffer leapfrogged the other ahead to the next scene. we used diffusion frames to soften further when we got in tight, used a little kino or bounce fill when we needed it... but most of the time we didn't even use that. the '18 is so sensitive in the midtones, a lot of the time whatever came off existing steetlights or bounced up off the street was more than enough to fill. for me that's the advantage of vision2 stocks.

and its also why i don't think its such a great such a great stock for the look rolfe is going for. with a smaller set, with walls close by, subject right down on the floor, light is going to bounce around, no matter how much cutting you do, and the mids will get filled in. with vision2, that can't be avoided. if you look at the "darren hayes" video on my reel, that was done on 5218. i used so little light, and underexposed so much, i couldn't sleep the night we wrapped! and you still have such a great amout of detail in the shadows and mids...

sorry for the long, windy post. have fun, and go for it!!
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#14 Joseph Zizzo

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 10:42 PM

michael,

nice effect, i wish i had used it on "jesse mccartney"! such a smart, simple technique...
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#15 Rolfe Klement

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 06:17 AM

I might just use a simple inline dimmer to bring the temperature down on the light - and bring it closer to skin

thanks

Rolfe
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#16 Michael Nash

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 06:51 PM

michael,

nice effect, i wish i had used it on "jesse mccartney"! such a smart, simple technique...


Of course if you're doing it in telecine it helps to start with a dense negative. If your red layer is too weak to begin with you'll just end up with grain or noise in that channel when you boost it. It just depends on what you're starting with and how far you're trying to push it.

This is where colored lighting can help, rather than a colored camera filter if you're fighting for exposure. Also you can select which subjects you want to treat with color.

The JM video seems to have come out pretty nice anyway!
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