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Red NDA?


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#1 Tim Tyler

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 01:20 AM

Are Red owners required to agree to a nondisclosure agreement when taking delivery on their new cameras?
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 02:06 AM

Are Red owners required to agree to a nondisclosure agreement when taking delivery on their new cameras?


Don't know myself, but maybe the NDA says that can't say that they signed an NDA... ;)
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#3 Chad Stockfleth

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 09:39 AM

What would they try to keep from being disclosed? Does it convert into a missile?
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#4 Stephen Williams

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 09:46 AM

What would they try to keep from being disclosed? Does it convert into a missile?


Hi Chad,

Any issues with the cameras & lenses.

I think the best info will come from renters, owners have a horse in the race.

Stephen
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#5 Mitch Gross

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 12:14 PM

I don't own a RED so I wouldn't particularly know. I can say that I do know a number of things about the camera that I would not share because it is both smart business and common courtesy. I do the same for numerous other manufacturers.
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 12:21 PM

You find out in this industry that there are degrees of openess and disclosure for different levels of communication.

Personal conversations and private email can be very blunt, rumors freely passed on, etc.

Posts to forums have to be a little more responsible since what you say can get passed around like wildfire and come back to haunt you. But even at that level, there is some publically accepted level of informality.

Written articles require more tact because of the large readership and the fact that it is in print can give it a form of legitimacy that it may not deserve. It becomes much more important to clearly identify, recognize fact from personal opinion (which is probably a good attitude to have in life anyway).

And of course, if you work for a company like Mitch does, you have to be aware that what you say may be construed as company policy or attitude since you are a defacto spokesperson for that company when speaking or writing publically.
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#7 Tim Tyler

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 10:50 PM

Well since I'm sure some Red owners have read this thread, and no one has said "there is no NDA", one must assume there is an NDA and they're not allowed to talk about it.

As someone who believes strongly in the the openness of communication, especially on the Internet, I am bothered by this if it's true. Combine that with Red's heavy use of the Internet to promote it's products, an NDA that would prevent product information sharing seems unfair.
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#8 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 11:11 PM

Well, there seems to be pretty open communication on the RedUser site about issues regarding the camera or REDCINE, etc. by the camera owners. Don't know if there is an NDA or if it restricts them on posting about problems to the RedUser site only, but there doesn't seem to be any restrictions there about discussing these things.

The NDA, if it exists, may be more about monitoring what gets printed in publications, or simply just cover some operational issues regarding software updates, etc.
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#9 Ruairi Robinson

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 11:37 PM

Well since I'm sure some Red owners have read this thread, and no one has said "there is no NDA", one must assume there is an NDA and they're not allowed to talk about it.

As someone who believes strongly in the the openness of communication, especially on the Internet, I am bothered by this if it's true. Combine that with Red's heavy use of the Internet to promote it's products, an NDA that would prevent product information sharing seems unfair.


Wowsers, thats a pretty big leap to make.

People have openly discussed problems with the camera on reduser.net, and the few who suggested that problems should be kept between the user and red itself have been loudly shot down by the majority.

But since nobody has said there aren't invisible fairies dancing around your head, you should assume there are :)

R.
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#10 Jim Jannard

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 01:24 AM

Well since I'm sure some Red owners have read this thread, and no one has said "there is no NDA", one must assume there is an NDA and they're not allowed to talk about it.

As someone who believes strongly in the the openness of communication, especially on the Internet, I am bothered by this if it's true. Combine that with Red's heavy use of the Internet to promote it's products, an NDA that would prevent product information sharing seems unfair.


This is about the dumbest thread to date on RED. You assume that because no one says there is no NDA that there must be? And why is that? Of course there is no NDA. Why they hell would we do that?

We have suppliers sign NDAs, not customers. We keep them saying nice things by bending over backwards trying to take care of our customers with service. Not dictating that they can't speak. I think if we were dumb enough to have our customers sign an NDA, that is the 1st thing you would hear about.

You say this board is not negative RED and the leader of the pack says stuff like this?

Maybe I should take this as a compliment... to many people saying good things that you think they must be "mouth-cuffed".

Jim

Edited by Jim Jannard, 19 November 2007 - 01:27 AM.

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#11 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 01:41 AM

Well, if someone had simply said there were no NDA's for customers right from the start, the thread would have died pretty quickly. Nature abhors a vacuum, as they say, so rumors keep spinning out of control until someone in the know steps in to set things straight.
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#12 Jim Jannard

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 02:53 AM

David... I'm trying to figure out a productive reason for the question in the 1st place. What exactly was the point? The follow-up response seemed to want to infer that we use the forums for promotion, then attempt to limit our customers communication. These kind of questions, and follow-up have no positive intent whatsoever.

I hope Tim and the rest of this board has a chance to actually shoot RED... better yet, rent a RED. Just to see what everyone is talking about. And to see what kind of service one gets during our development phase on a rental.

Every customer that has received their camera has been told that the camera is not done. They have been offered three choices. 1. Take delivery and expect updates and development issues. 2. Wait until we are done. 3. Get their money back, including interest and a premium... no questions asked. Most have taken Door #1. A few have selected Door #2. No one (yet) has chosen Door #3.

So the reason that no one is complaining, loudly anyway, is that they know what they are in for and have chosen to accept "early adopter" status. They are all part of the process.

Our camera is not perfect. We still have features to enable and problems to solve. But RED is shooting feature movies without problems and winning friends. If you have a chance to actually shoot RED and then decide to trash it, no problem. That's when we listen to criticism and work hard to make our camera better.

Jim

Edited by Jim Jannard, 19 November 2007 - 02:55 AM.

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#13 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 03:57 AM

David... I'm trying to figure out a productive reason for the question in the 1st place.


Probably because Tim heard a rumor and wanted to know it was true. The RED company and campaign has been innovative and unconventional, so it's no wonder that rumors that normally would be dismissed out of hand may seem possible until the facts are presented by someone with some authority. You've created a mystique about the company and the product, and one of the downsides of that is rumors can run rampart. The upside is that the product is sexier than an F23... ;)
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#14 Seung Han

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 03:13 PM

Just from common sense, I understand both Ruairi's sarcasm and Jim's annoyance at some of the lame posts in this thread. Just to throw this out there and assume it is true because nobody has denied is laziness and gossip mongering.

Somebody needs to man up and apologize...
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#15 John Sprung

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 03:22 PM

I hope Tim and the rest of this board has a chance to actually shoot RED...

OK Jim, how about we put together a Hollywood comshaw test day, starting with the ASC? I'm sure that I can get the post work we'd need. First we'd need to know what they want to shoot, and what they can bring to the party. Let's discuss this offline with David if you're interested.



-- J.S.
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#16 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 09:13 PM

> What exactly was the point?

Because it would be a rather appalling development and we'd want to know if it was the case.

> The follow-up response seemed to want to infer that we use the forums for promotion, then attempt to limit our customers communication.

You're trying to tell me you don't do exactly that?

> These kind of questions, and follow-up have no positive intent whatsoever.

They're not required to.

You have created this situation by your own behaviour. You could look on it, I suppose, as the fallout of the sort of advertising you did.

Phil
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#17 Jim Jannard

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 02:20 AM

> What exactly was the point?

Because it would be a rather appalling development and we'd want to know if it was the case.

> The follow-up response seemed to want to infer that we use the forums for promotion, then attempt to limit our customers communication.

You're trying to tell me you don't do exactly that?

> These kind of questions, and follow-up have no positive intent whatsoever.

They're not required to.

You have created this situation by your own behaviour. You could look on it, I suppose, as the fallout of the sort of advertising you did.

Phil


Hind sight is 20/20. I realize now that I should have listened to you from the beginning. We would have had a much better chance at being successful. :-)

I understand that you do not like the way we presented ourselves. Sorry about that. I might have done a few things different, but not too many. Enthusiasm is hard to bridle.

And I also understand that you do not believe the camera to be worthy of the praise it is getting. Sorry about that, too. On this one I just prefer to disagree with you.

Once you actually see the camera and have a chance to shoot it, I'd love to hear your feedback. Not about how we presented it... but your thoughts on the image it creates from your hand.

My best,

Jim

Edited by Jim Jannard, 20 November 2007 - 02:22 AM.

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#18 Tim Tyler

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 10:48 AM

Hey, Jim, I'm sorry for assuming the worst. I read a printed review in some magazine a few weeks ago where the author mentioned being under an NDA, so it got me thinking and I just wanted to know. Thanks for clearing it up.
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#19 Luke Haywood

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 06:13 AM

This whole thread seems a bit unfortunate.

First of all, the correct answer to "Do RED purchasers have to sign an NDA?" is surely "Yes" or "No." I don't think it's particularly silly or paranoid to suggest that an NDA could preclude commenting on the existence of an NDA. There's no law of Physics that says its impossible.

But as is all too common on internet forums, five people decided to post opinions, none of whom were in any position to know the answer, but they all had to put in their 2 cents worth.

On the other hand, the original question might have been better phrased, as Tim had admitted. Something like: "I've heard rumours that there is an NDA, is there any truth to this?"

It would appear that nobody who has actually taken delivery of a RED (and there aren't all that many at present) visits this forum or feels like posting on it. It's intriguing that it was left to Jim Jannard himself to answer the question!
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#20 Luke Haywood

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 06:18 AM

> The follow-up response seemed to want to infer that we use the forums for promotion, then attempt to limit our customers communication.

You're trying to tell me you don't do exactly that?


Phil

Do you know for sure that they've actually done that, or is that just another rumour? Are there any examples you can point us to?
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