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0.300 perf vs 0.2994 pitch film


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#1 Kristian Schumacher

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 04:44 AM

I am tying to get my Milliken dbm-54 running and eventually running s16. The label inside says to use 0.300 perf high-speed film. The manual speaks of .300 vs .2997 pitch film. I have only had some single-perf film at hand, and the perfs seem to fit the sprockets ok on the "right" side. I will be looking to get rid of drive gears and polishing up the left side in prep for s16. Then at least I can run single-perf film through it which is much easier to get hold of as well. Does anyone know if I will have problems with this .300/.2997 issue?

Thanks,

Kristian
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#2 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 09:53 AM

> 0.300 perf vs 0.2994 pitch film , What is the difference?

0.0006"

Phil

(Well, sorry, but you did rather...)
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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 10:22 AM

I am tying to get my Milliken dbm-54 running and eventually running s16. The label inside says to use 0.300 perf high-speed film. The manual speaks of .300 vs .2997 pitch film. I have only had some single-perf film at hand, and the perfs seem to fit the sprockets ok on the "right" side. I will be looking to get rid of drive gears and polishing up the left side in prep for s16. Then at least I can run single-perf film through it which is much easier to get hold of as well. Does anyone know if I will have problems with this .300/.2997 issue?

Thanks,

Kristian


Hi,

Depends on the speeds you are running, the .300 perfs were always special order. The camera may jam with .2997 pitch. The maximum speeds will be lower with single perf.

Stephen
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#4 Mark Dunn

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 02:19 PM

You can get long-pitch single perf to special order. The difference in pitch isn't enough to be noticeable when loading but obviously is significant at high speed. You're really talking about medium-speed, I think, up to 4 or 500fps. If you're not finishing on film, you might consider staying in standard ratio and cropping in transfer. That might be cheaper than converting, and you can stick with the double-perf the camera was built for.
A sudden thought. If you have to have sprockets adapted for S16 anyway, they can presumably be changed to short-pitch at the same time.
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#5 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 03:27 PM

A sudden thought. If you have to have sprockets adapted for S16 anyway, they can presumably be changed to short-pitch at the same time.

of course tif it uses a pull down claw, that would also have to be changed. The High-speed cameras are right on the edge ofposibility enginering beats and so make any chnage is probaly going to result in some torn film. That class of Camera is one where the stengh of the film will probaly require the use of both sets of perfs, ot avoid ending up with film coloured confetti.

But I may be too much of a cynic.
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#6 Stephen Williams

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 03:57 PM

of course tif it uses a pull down claw, that would also have to be changed. The High-speed cameras are right on the edge ofposibility enginering beats and so make any chnage is probaly going to result in some torn film. That class of Camera is one where the stengh of the film will probaly require the use of both sets of perfs, ot avoid ending up with film coloured confetti.

But I may be too much of a cynic.


Hi Charles,

A valid point, the S16 Photosonics Action master goes to 360 fps V 500 fps for the old 16mm 2 perf old version.

Stephen
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#7 Kristian Schumacher

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 04:48 PM

Thanks all,

I will definitely use the camera a bit with double perf film, but would really like to get the 15:9 ratio without cropping ( I guess there are many things I would like...) What I am thinking of is something like this:

http://www.alangordo...M55Super16.html

This states a max fps of 300 with single-perf as opposed to 400 in standard spec. If I understand it right, the .300/.2994 is just a difference in spacing of the perfs of about 0.015mm compared to standard s16 film (that's s5/8" to you, Phil ;) That is I guess why the standard film seems to fit fine to my naked eye. But will it jam at 200-300 fps if the sprockets are set for .300 film? Hmmm....

I would be doing this mod myself with the help/tools of a mechanic friend, and I think machining new sprockets is maybe taking it a bit far. I got the camera really cheap on ebay, but I have already invested quite a lot of time rewiring it, and don't want to ruin it by making it incompatible with the film stock.
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#8 Mark Dunn

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 05:16 AM

AGE don't say whether or not they've converted the Milliken to short-pitch- I suspect not, because they say specifically that the Photosonics IS short-pitch. The lower framing rate is because of the shortage of sprocket teeth, not the different pitch. I think you'd want to do a run test if you used short-pitch. It might just run noisy rather than shred the film-on a 100' roll you could do a few tests right up to top speed. You'd want to test the camera anyway.
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#9 Kristian Schumacher

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 06:56 AM

Thanks Mark,

That makes a lot of sense. I'll check if it runs OK with double-perf short-pitch film, and go from there.

Kristian
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#10 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 09:45 PM

I would be doing this mod myself with the help/tools of a mechanic friend, and I think machining new sprockets is maybe taking it a bit far.

if you look their are firms that make sprokets. Custom and expensive work but vital in the scheme of things..
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#11 Mark Dunn

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 11:37 AM

Good high-speed cine is jaw-dropping to look at. It's even more fun to create, but I was lucky- the military was paying the bills. We would only have called the Milliken medium-speed, anyway- high-speed was 1000pps and up, to 10,000. The film travels at a hundred miles an hour and you go through a 400' roll in about 3 seconds.
You will find things a lot more leisurely at a few hundred. At least you'll be able to stop and start; at 5,000 fps it goes right through in one go, and you clean the camera with a hoover and a pair of tweezers. Good luck.
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#12 Brian Hatfield

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:34 AM

I have been trying to load my DBM 3CM 16mm Milliken with dummy stock (White leader double-perf) and I am having a devil of a time trying to make the film go through the gate. I get the film through the first two loops, but when I try to push the film through the gate there is a locking pin (registration pin) that locks the perf while the pull-down claw is disingaged. But if I have the knob on the side directly lined up with the locking line...the gate lets me guide the film through and up to the pull-down claw. But, I still can't get the pull-down claw to hook the film without the registration pin coming into play again!

If anyone knows how to load this camera, please let me know. (Maybe it has to do with the .300/.2994 pitch?)


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#13 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:53 AM

............high-speed was 1000pps and up, to 10,000......

 

How do such cameras work?  Are they still intermittent movements or do they use revolving prisms or such


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#14 Mark Dunn

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:56 AM

Prism. Like this.

http://www.highspeed....de/16_e10.html

With a half-height frame it went to 20,000 but IIRC we only used it half-height at 5000, so the effective pps was only 10,000. Our usual top speed was 5000pps full-frame.

There are intermittents above 500pps but not many.


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#15 Nicholas Kovats

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:18 AM

Brian,

 

I suspect your double perf white leader is too thick for your gate. Do you have access to regular 2 perf acetate film stock (2R-3000) for testing purposes? 

 

I have been trying to load my DBM 3CM 16mm Milliken with dummy stock (White leader double-perf) and I am having a devil of a time trying to make the film go through the gate. I get the film through the first two loops, but when I try to push the film through the gate there is a locking pin (registration pin) that locks the perf while the pull-down claw is disingaged. But if I have the knob on the side directly lined up with the locking line...the gate lets me guide the film through and up to the pull-down claw. But, I still can't get the pull-down claw to hook the film without the registration pin coming into play again!

If anyone knows how to load this camera, please let me know. (Maybe it has to do with the .300/.2994 pitch?)


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FJS International, LLC

Visual Products

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Wooden Camera

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Rig Wheels Passport

rebotnix Technologies

Ritter Battery

Paralinx LLC

The Slider

Abel Cine

CineTape

Technodolly

Opal

Aerial Filmworks

Tai Audio

Glidecam

Broadcast Solutions Inc