Jump to content


Photo

Red one Vs F23


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 Fulgencio Martinez

Fulgencio Martinez
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 22 November 2007 - 08:34 AM

Hi,
i´ll be shooting a short film and i have the chance to work with this too cameras.
Wich one would you prefer?
i´d like to have 35mm DoF so if i go with f23 i´d use pro35 adapter.
will hdcamsr have more latitude and post control than recode?
or all the way around?
i have no experience with any of this cameras
Should i work with a waveform monitor
my experience is basacally on film, and digi beta, mini-dv....
please help
thanks
  • 0

#2 Delorme Jean-Marie

Delorme Jean-Marie
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 513 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • paris, france

Posted 22 November 2007 - 08:58 AM

hi

HDcam SR is the best tape format : it's HD.
with the F23 you can record HD on tape or 2K on data.
with red you have an output on HD or 2K or 4K so you are comparing oranges and apples.
red already have a 35mm sensor so you don't need the pro35 tool
Yes use a waveform on both cases so you keep your signal between total darkness and clipped highlights.

if dont do side by side key light teste on a lady's face and a MC beth color chart i'll be glad to hear your observations
  • 0

#3 Fulgencio Martinez

Fulgencio Martinez
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 22 November 2007 - 09:07 AM

thank for your answer
i know the diferences in resolution
my interest is more in the latitude, compresion and overall grading posibilities afterwards.
hdv has more resolution than digibeta, but i´d never shoot with it.
What about redcode? is it better or worst than hdcamsr?
is it 4:4:4?
  • 0

#4 Andrew Brinkhaus

Andrew Brinkhaus
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles, CA

Posted 22 November 2007 - 09:44 AM

If you have RED specific questions, you will probably find more answers over at www.reduser.net.

Edited by Andrew Brinkhaus, 22 November 2007 - 09:45 AM.

  • 0

#5 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19759 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 22 November 2007 - 12:35 PM

REDCODE is the compression scheme -- the camera itself captures 12-bit 4K RAW Bayer data (or windowed 2K Bayer).

RAW Bayer means that it hasn't be processed yet into RGB values (just like a digital still camera shooting in RAW mode.)

4:4:4 is a video term, although you can say that 4:4:4 and RGB are more or less the same thing.

HDCAM-SR is limited to HD resolution, 1920 x 1080, at 10-bit 4:4:4 or 4:2:2. It has a 2:1 compression, which is mild.

You could call HD 1.9K, nearly 2K. So the F23 camera is practically a 2K RGB camera more or less, with 2/3" optics & depth of field.

REDCODE is more compressed but it is a virtually lossless wavelet compression scheme. And it is necessary to make 12-bit 4K RAW Bayer manageable for recording. Leaving the image in RAW mode for recording also effectively limits the data rate by one-third (converting to RGB values triples the amount of data.)

Now the controversial part is that 4K RAW is converted in post to 4K RGB, but some would say that the effective resolution is more like 3K RGB. That's still higher than 2K RGB though.

Compression issues and latitude, well, no one has released any significant comparisons yet. For now, I'd just consider them as being competitive with each other in that regards until someone proves otherwise.
  • 0

#6 Mitch Gross

Mitch Gross
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2873 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 22 November 2007 - 01:57 PM

I would add that since you have no experience with these sort of cameras, an absolute must is to find a qualified DIT or engineer to work with you on the shoot and you'll need a good post facility that can work with the engineer to translate what you were trying to achieve on set into a finished product. Otherwise neither of the cameras will give you a good result, or at least the result you want.
  • 0

#7 Michael Nash

Michael Nash
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3330 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Pasadena, CA

Posted 22 November 2007 - 03:04 PM

Don't bother with 35mm adapters when using a high-end camera like the F23, you'd only be throwing away a lot of the quality that the camera can deliver. These adapters make more of a difference for 1/3" chip cameras that simply can't achieve shallow depth of field with their native focal lengths.

Try putting quality HD glass like the Zeiss Digiprimes wide open on a 2/3" chip camera and you'll be able to get beautiful, clean, gracefully-focused images.

And Mitch is right, I'll add that ALL of this is academic until you actually lay hands and eyeballs on the cameras, and the images you can get from them.
  • 0

#8 Fulgencio Martinez

Fulgencio Martinez
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 22 November 2007 - 04:32 PM

thxs for your answers
Looks like i´ll go with F23
Why do i need an engineer? i don´t think we have this posibilty either
but i never had an engineer on a shooting!
never used hd, but used nearly every digital system by myself
i´m a bit scared about this engineer thing, please tell me
Isn´t it enough with a vectorscope and a monitor?
  • 0

#9 Walter Graff

Walter Graff
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1334 posts
  • Other
  • New York City

Posted 22 November 2007 - 04:53 PM

If you've shot video you don't need an engineer. A lot of people like to make HD out as some sort of mystical realm and incredibly hard format to shoot with. And they make
RED seem like nirvana. It and an F23 are simply tools, no more. You said you've been shooting with other pro formats so will have no difficulty wiht this one. About the biggest difference is maintaining focus. Just figure out the look you want and ask the rental house to help you achieve it so you can simply load a tape and shoot. Based on your experience the F23 sounds like a better choice. You don't need an adapter for it. Adapters are for consumer cameras that folks want to simulate more professional pictures with. Both cameras are more professional. You'll get great depth of field from a stock lens so fear not. Use a waveform if you want and especially if you know how to readone . If not, forget it. Set your zebras at 80% and keep your facial exposures just below it for fool proof shooting. If you know cameras you can expose your faces at any range if you know all your tricks.
  • 0

#10 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19759 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 22 November 2007 - 08:15 PM

The F23 is a pretty complicated broadcast camera, so while I don't feel an engineer or DIT is a must if you have some basic experience shooting with professional video equipment, you also shouldn't expect to just pick one up on the morning of the shoot and just hope you figure it out while people are staring at you on the shoot. Schedule a day at the rental house to go through the camera with a rental tech, set-up a monitor, check out the menu options, etc.

If you have no experience with broadcast video equipment, it's up to you to either learn something about it before your shoot or play it safe and hire someone who does to help you out.
  • 0

#11 Walter Graff

Walter Graff
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1334 posts
  • Other
  • New York City

Posted 22 November 2007 - 11:03 PM

As you said, you've never used HD, but used nearly every digital system by yourself and listed digibetacam experience. HDCAM is basically a digibeta machine that records twice the lines. Similar in terms of electronics and the like. Identical transport. If you have no experience with 24p ask a rental house or read one of the thousands of articles on settings for 24p with HDCAM found all over the web. If you know little about internal settings, simply ask your rental shop to help you set up a look that works for you. Problem with most folks and their lack of knowledge of all the insides is that they were never really meant to play with the insides in the first place. Years ago we had cameras that required an engineer to make adjustments as they were done with a small screwdriver with potentiometers in the camera and required knowledgeable people with proper test equipment. A few years later manufactures made the engineers job easier by making those mechanical adjustments electronic. But somewhere along the way when film folks decided to embrace HD they decided that they too needed to play with all the insides of the camera even though most had little knowledge of the workings of a camera. It's the reason why there is an operators menu and engineering menu which requires extra steps to get to. Only qualified engineers were really designed to play with many of those controls. But some electronic cinematographers have gotten pretty good at playing with the controls themselves. Most others want to catch up but don't realize that only a few of the engineering controls really need to be adjusted, and most other adjustments are something better done in a shop with a chart and scope. Hence why many folks screw up rental camera settings, they are playing with stuff that really requires bench adjusting and experience. Many folks who were camera assistants in film five years ago soon realized that their jobs where gone when many folks went to digital cinematography so many started to call themselves DIT's. While there are some qualified DITs out there, many are not really competent to play inside of a camera. So if you go that route find a DIT/engineer that has more an engineering background than a former camera assistant/film background, or a former camera assistant that is well versed in the electronics of a camera to be sure they really know what they are doing. But as I said, if you ask your rental house to help you make a setting that works for you, you will not need anything but a good eye once a camera is set up properly, just as you would for any video format. You never used an engineer before and probably will not need it if you know what you want the camera to do looks wise and have someone qualified set that for you before you shoot. It's not magic, simply make sure all your tools do what you want before you use them.
  • 0

#12 Kevin Zanit

Kevin Zanit
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1223 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • LA

Posted 22 November 2007 - 11:22 PM

I agree with most of the above. I have shot video (including HD) for many years. That said, I still like to bring out a DIT. I have heard many terrible DIT stories, but I have only ever worked with one, Elhanan Matos who I have known for years and work well with. He has a great artistic eye and can give me valuable input when asked but can also tear apart an F900 with is eyes closed.

I have always worked with a DIT except for a few instances, for example a few pickup shots in New York where it was a very small crew, he just gave me a memory stick and told the 1st what to do settings wise once we got the gear from Plus8 NY. I know the basics of how to read a waveform and can set a monitor to bars no problem. I am doing a shoot next week with no DIT as Elhanan is not available (I need to stop promoting him on this site ;) ), though I am so comfortable with the F900 that I'm not really worried.

Kevin Zanit
  • 0

#13 Michael Nash

Michael Nash
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3330 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Pasadena, CA

Posted 24 November 2007 - 01:32 AM

thxs for your answers
Looks like i´ll go with F23
Why do i need an engineer? i don´t think we have this posibilty either
but i never had an engineer on a shooting!
never used hd, but used nearly every digital system by myself
i´m a bit scared about this engineer thing, please tell me
Isn´t it enough with a vectorscope and a monitor?


David's right that the F23 is a pretty complicated camera, and while you don't need an engineer to shoot with it, you really should have a camera assistant who is familiar with it. It's not configured like any other video camera, and even simple things like ports and filter wheel controls are different. Not impossible to learn, but "new" enough that it would help to have an assistant deal with setting up the camera and recorder to do what you want it to do.

As for using a waveform, one of the big advantages of a camera like the F23 is its "S LOG" gamma curve that creates an image with flattened contrast and maximum range for the purpose of color correction in post -- simliar to the way the Viper works in "filmstream mode." You can still use a waveform when shooting this way, but depending on what image you're monitoring (the uncorrected image or an image with a basic LUT applied), what you read on a waveform monitor may not be the same as the final image. It's not like shooting a regular video image, although not too difficult to get used to.

And if you DO want to use a more traditional video gamma, there are still many controls over that image as well. You don't necessarily need an engineer or DIT in the field to shoot this way, but it can help if you want to modify the image while shooting (if you're not familiar with the controls and menus). The engineers at the rental house should be able to help program one or several "looks" ahead of time that you can recall in the field.
  • 0

#14 Mitch Gross

Mitch Gross
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2873 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 24 November 2007 - 09:59 AM

There's something like 2500 choices available in the menu system of the F23. Many of them never need to be touched, but to get the most out of any camera it is best to have an understanding of what they can do.

As for the RED One, if you do not have an understanding of what it means to shoot RAW and then how to walk that material through post (which is very ntensive), then I doubt one could get an acceptable image at all.

Walter, what is straightforward to you may not be to someone else, even if they have done a lot of shooting in the past.
  • 0

#15 Walter Graff

Walter Graff
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1334 posts
  • Other
  • New York City

Posted 24 November 2007 - 11:42 AM

Walter, what is straightforward to you may not be to someone else, even if they have done a lot of shooting in the past.


Obviously, so I'll simply offer what I see as sound advice.

"i have no experience with any of this cameras"

Well the next question is how much experience do you have with professional cameras like it? You mention Digibeta. I would eliminate RED as it would more than likely have a higher learning curve for you.

If you have used Digibeta and feel comfortable using it then using this camera will be very similar in terms of viewfinder, external controls, etc. If you are looking for a particular look then a rental house technician should be asked to help set you up. If you need more help in the field, then someone who is of an engineering background with the camera might be helpful.

So as not to mystify HDCAM. It is a camera that can record video and simulate a film look. There are no secrets to this. There are simply a few settings that need to be made to do this effect. And there are also more subtle settings that can create looks that act more like certain filmstocks and can offer you looks that saturate/desatrate color and offer adjustments in how the camera interprets shades of gray. As I said, you can set this camera up once in a rental house to give you a good ball park look or you can fiddle with it constantly in the field making minute adjustments that are just as easy to do well in post, that is unless your shooting requires particular changes in looks or you are shooting in vary varied conditions where small adjustments can help you record information better on tape in the first place, then manipulate it in post.

"Should i work with a waveform monitor"

Do you have any experience with a digital waveform monitor? Some folks are technical and some more by eye creative. A good monitor in my opinion will give you just as much as a waveform in most all shooting cases on an ordinary day. I see many folks who use a waveform to tell them what white is. You can easily do that with zebras in a camera too.

"My interest is more in the latitude, compression and overall grading possibilities afterwards."

Then HDCAM is a good choice. You can grade no different in most cases than you can film. In compression are you talking about how the format records? If so, than know that you will get what you shoot without loosing anything that will make or break your shots in most all shooting scenarios.

"hdv has more resolution than digibeta, but i´d never shoot with it."

Actually digibeta is a better format than HDV for many reasons. I'd go as far to say it might be Sony's best format ever!! It is actually not to far off of a design than HDCAM. In fact to this day many stock houses who have SD footage on Digibeta simply line double it and make indistinguishable HD. You can shoot with HDV for TV quite well as I do every week. But for film outs and the like there are better and more robust choices like HDCAM.

"What about redcode? is it better or worst than hdcamsr?"

This is for much debate. Inevitably the idea of course is to start out with as much as you can. Red Code offers a lot of information in how it packs a picture, probably much more than any way of viewing it is really capable of utilizing these days. HDCAM SR offers as much information as one would normally need and offers it all in a camera that can record what you need without a lot of additional equipment.

Will Redcode offer you more in your final product? Possibly, but based on the current methods we use today, it's really over kill in many ways.


"is it 4:4:4? "

Both systems can do 4:4:4 color sampling. But 4:4:4 does not always mean better by itself.
  • 0

#16 Fulgencio Martinez

Fulgencio Martinez
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 25 November 2007 - 08:13 AM

Hi guys,
Thanks for all of your replies
finally the red camera hasn´t arrived to the rental house, and F23 will be busy for some time... :( ooohh
i´l go with 900R, digiprimes and record on extenal SRW-1
Any tips on this? does anyone have experience with this setup?
btw, what does DIT stand for?
My camera assistant has experience with f900 (not 900r), so i guess it would be right.
We are going with a reduced crew, so no engineer (never brought a mechanic, nor a chemestry guy shooting on film ;) )
Should i lower details settings as i do with digibeta?
Do i need any especial viewing assistance to use hypergamma?
Any problems with 24p?
thanks
  • 0

#17 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19759 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 25 November 2007 - 01:47 PM

The F900R is an improved (and smaller) version of the F900, so it shouldn't be too hard to learn.

With an HD camera, detail should be used minimally if at all. For greenscreen work, turn it off. And turn off the color matrix too for greenscreen work, anything that adds "edges" to objects or monkeys around with chroma levels. I did a test on a greenscreen stage turning the standard REC709 color space off and on on the F900, and found that the REC709 was adding a faint color fringe around the subject due to the boost in chroma levels. Doesn't mean you can't make a key from it (people manage to key the worst edge-enhanced crappy video sometimes.)

Hypergamma is meant to be displayed on a normal monitor, it just will look lower in contrast, but not odd and milky like Log.
  • 0

#18 Stephen Williams

Stephen Williams
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4708 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Europe

Posted 25 November 2007 - 02:18 PM

The F900R is an improved (and smaller) version of the F900, so it shouldn't be too hard to learn.

With an HD camera, detail should be used minimally if at all. For greenscreen work, turn it off. And turn off the color matrix too for greenscreen work, anything that adds "edges" to objects or monkeys around with chroma levels. I did a test on a greenscreen stage turning the standard REC709 color space off and on on the F900, and found that the REC709 was adding a faint color fringe around the subject due to the boost in chroma levels. Doesn't mean you can't make a key from it (people manage to key the worst edge-enhanced crappy video sometimes.)

Hypergamma is meant to be displayed on a normal monitor, it just will look lower in contrast, but not odd and milky like Log.



Hi David,

I find the F900R with detail off seems over sharp. I found Hypergamma 4 worked the best for me.

Stephen
  • 0

#19 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19759 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 25 November 2007 - 07:48 PM

Hi David,

I find the F900R with detail off seems over sharp. I found Hypergamma 4 worked the best for me.

Stephen


How can Edge Enhancement (Detail) being OFF make the image over-sharpened when there's no sharpening being applied? Are you sure you aren't confusing OFF with setting Detail at "0", which is actually halfway between -99 and +99? "0" for Detail is rather heavy -- most people opt for around -35 for broadcast work and -60 to -99, or OFF, for theatrical work. Less than OFF is called a diffusion filter...

I don't know if the F900R scales go from -99 to +99 like they do on the F900.

Or did you mean that Detail OFF is over-soft, not over-sharp?
  • 0

#20 Saul Rodgar

Saul Rodgar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1682 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 25 November 2007 - 11:19 PM

btw, what does DIT stand for?

thanks


Digital Imaging Technician, the tech that translates what you want to get out of the image to the camera electronics so that you get that on the recorder and not something else.

If you use lenses that have back focus, that is something you really have to watch out for. I know of camera assistants that were summarily fired when some images were completely out of focus when viewed on large monitors even though on small monitors and the eyepiece they were apparently in focus. All of the digi primes (Zeiss and Canon) I have seen do not have a back focus ring, but a word to the wise, any zooms that have it will bite hard if not attended. This is different than on most SD broadcast lenses, where the back focus can go unattended and the picture may still look OK. HD will go soft focus fast.
Good luck.
  • 0


Rig Wheels Passport

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Abel Cine

CineLab

FJS International, LLC

Opal

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Visual Products

Ritter Battery

CineTape

Glidecam

Tai Audio

Paralinx LLC

rebotnix Technologies

Technodolly

The Slider

Willys Widgets

Metropolis Post

Wooden Camera

Aerial Filmworks

Visual Products

Paralinx LLC

Willys Widgets

CineLab

Opal

CineTape

Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

rebotnix Technologies

Glidecam

The Slider

Technodolly

FJS International, LLC

Abel Cine

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Metropolis Post

Wooden Camera

Tai Audio

Ritter Battery

Aerial Filmworks