Jump to content


Photo

16mm Film Stock Advice


  • Please log in to reply
10 replies to this topic

#1 Ray Noori

Ray Noori
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 80 posts
  • Director

Posted 29 November 2007 - 04:01 PM

I'm about to embark on my first film-shooting with my Bolex H16 Rex 4 16mm camera and a Sekonic L-358 light-meter. I have just received the four different types of stock I had ordered from Kodak today and I'm trying to match the stock with a fitting filming situation, any advice would be greatly appreciated!

1) Kodak Vision 2 50D 7201
Slow daylight stock. But how much daylight would I need to shoot outdoors? Out in the countryside to be precise. I'm planning on shooting at dusk and dawn, is this stock too slow for that?

2) Kodak Vision2 250D 7205
Faster than the 50D stock, so maybe this one is better suited for the dusk and dawn situations? Or cloudy days? For both this stock and the 50D, is a daylight filter a must?

3) Kodak Vision2 500T 7218
This is the fastest stock I have. It's tungsten stock, but I'm actually hoping to use it outdoors at night with minimal artificial light (more or less just street lamps as a light-source). Is that feasible? Would the picture be way too grainy? Would I need a filter?

4) Eastman Double-X 7222
The only b&w stock that I bought. I was hoping it would be versatile, since I want to use it to do both shooting outdoors in the city and indoors in high-contrast lighting situations. Any tips?

I appreciate any help.
  • 0

#2 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19760 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 29 November 2007 - 04:41 PM

You're going to need ND filters for the daylight stocks and 85B + ND filters for the tungsten stocks for daytime scenes.

On a clear day in direct sunlight, you get a little over f/16 at 50 ASA with no filters, so even with the 50D stock, carrying around an ND.3 and ND.6 plus a Pola would be useful so you don't have to shoot so stopped down. I mean, you can just squeak by with no filters with 50D since if it gets overcast or you shoot in backlight, you won't be at an f/16 anyway.

With a 250D stock, you'll definitely need ND filters in daytime, maybe an ND.9 or ND1.2 as well as the ND.3 and ND.6, or combine an ND.6 with a Pola.

As for dusk, it all depends on what you are exposing for. For a sunset sky, with everything else in silhouette, 50D is fast enough, but if you want to have some exposure on the ground, the light drops like a rock every minute, until you reach the point where no stock is fast enough. If I have a dusk scene, I usually use 250D unless I want a blue-ish twilight look, so then I'd use 200T or 500T with no 85B filter. If I'm shooting in 35mm, I'm not so concerned about the grain of 500T and use that for blue twilight. But in 16mm, I may stick to 200T and live with not shooting as deep into twilight as I could with 500T -- just depends.

How much available light you can shoot at night also depends on how fast your lens is and whether you can undercrank for more exposure.
  • 0

#3 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 29 November 2007 - 06:27 PM

David, I'm still a little unfamiliar with the f stop system. If 50 ASA stock is supposed to be exposed a f16, then surely 100 ASA stock should be exposed at f32?
  • 0

#4 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19760 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 29 November 2007 - 06:34 PM

David, I'm still a little unfamiliar with the f stop system. If 50 ASA stock is supposed to be exposed a f16, then surely 100 ASA stock should be exposed at f32?


The next f-stop after f/16 is f/22, then f/32. Every doubling of the f/stop number is a two-stop jump. F/2 to f/4 is a two-stop jump, with f/2.8 in between.

So, if the light level was such that f/16 was the correct exposure for 50 ASA, then f/22 would be the correct exposure for 100 ASA.

However, 50D stock is daylight-balanced and 100T stock is tungsten-balanced, so more than likely you would use an 85B filter on the 100T stock to correct it to daylight. Since the 85B filter loses 2/3's of a stop, your 100T stock becomes effectively a 64D stock when you use the 85B filter, so it's only 1/3 of a stop faster than 50D in that situation (though you could pull the 85B filter and get 100 ASA).

You just have to memorize this f/stop sequence:

1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22

Note that every other number is double or half. This tells you that an expanded range would be:

0.7, 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, 32, 44, 64 (although 44 is 45 normally, probably because 11 is really 11.2, double of 5.6, so 22 is 22.4, so 44 is 44.8).

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-stop
  • 0

#5 Matthew Buick

Matthew Buick
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2345 posts
  • Student
  • Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

Posted 30 November 2007 - 04:12 PM

Thanks, David. You've really cracked a lot for me there. Thanks.
  • 0

#6 K Borowski

K Borowski
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3905 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • I.A.T.S.E. Local # 600 Eastern Region

Posted 02 December 2007 - 12:25 PM

Thanks, David. You've really cracked a lot for me there. Thanks.


Going out and getting real-world experience actually shooting film would "crack" a lot more for you than harassing respected members of the ASC. I can understand you not having the money to shoot 16- and 35mm but sheesh, you don't know how the F/stop scale works? Stop fantasizing about being a filmmaker on an internet forum and go out there and SHOOT something! Get a book from the library on basic photography or filmmaking and it will answer all of these silly questions in an hour.
  • 0

#7 Bobby Shore

Bobby Shore
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 95 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles / Montreal

Posted 02 December 2007 - 04:50 PM

Going out and getting real-world experience actually shooting film would "crack" a lot more for you than harassing respected members of the ASC. I can understand you not having the money to shoot 16- and 35mm but sheesh, you don't know how the F/stop scale works? Stop fantasizing about being a filmmaker on an internet forum and go out there and SHOOT something! Get a book from the library on basic photography or filmmaking and it will answer all of these silly questions in an hour.



Karl, we're all here to help each other out, so if you're going out of your way to insult someone who may not know as much about cinematography as others, why don;t you keep it to yourself. Or better yet, maybe you could recommend some books that would be helpful, or at least be constructive with your opinions.

Matthew, check out Cinematography by Kris Malkiewicz, it's a greater starter...good luck man.


Bobby Shore
DP
LA/Montreal
  • 0

#8 Ray Noori

Ray Noori
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 80 posts
  • Director

Posted 02 December 2007 - 08:12 PM

Going out and getting real-world experience actually shooting film would "crack" a lot more for you than harassing respected members of the ASC. I can understand you not having the money to shoot 16- and 35mm but sheesh, you don't know how the F/stop scale works? Stop fantasizing about being a filmmaker on an internet forum and go out there and SHOOT something! Get a book from the library on basic photography or filmmaking and it will answer all of these silly questions in an hour.


Matthew,

I've been on this forum for about 2 months now, since I decided it was time I tried my hand at cinematography, after years of videography. In these two months I have gotten help, advice, and general tips from numerous advanced and sustaining members about any number of topics: what camera to buy, how to light, which stock to use, etc. The mean-spirited, self-absorbed, and frankly dumb response by Karl Borrowski is not at representative of how I've seen this forum work. So don't get discouraged. There's a wealth of knowledge here that can complement what knowledge you're already gaining from books and practicing.

David, Bobby,

Thank you so much for your insight and patience. I have now finished my first roll of 50D and once I get it transfered I will definitely post it here. Thank you again.
  • 0

#9 K Borowski

K Borowski
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3905 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • I.A.T.S.E. Local # 600 Eastern Region

Posted 02 December 2007 - 09:58 PM

The mean-spirited, self-absorbed, and frankly dumb response by Karl Borrowski is not at representative of how I've seen this forum work. So don't get discouraged. There's a wealth of knowledge here that can complement what knowledge you're already gaining from books and practicing.


Ray, I said what I did out of respect to you and David. Coming on a thread and hijacking it to gain a fundamental understanding of an F/stop strikes me as far more rude than my response. I've come on and explained the principle of "F/stops" on this forum numerous times, to those that ask, but not to those that do it in the context of another's question. In the future, if you need help, I will let Matt help you out :blink: You won't receive further help from me turning around and stabbing me in the back for trying to keep "excess noise" out of your thread. Thanks also for slandering my name in a place that all the world can see. . .
  • 0

#10 Ray Noori

Ray Noori
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 80 posts
  • Director

Posted 03 December 2007 - 12:06 AM

Ray, I said what I did out of respect to you and David. Coming on a thread and hijacking it to gain a fundamental understanding of an F/stop strikes me as far more rude than my response. I've come on and explained the principle of "F/stops" on this forum numerous times, to those that ask, but not to those that do it in the context of another's question. In the future, if you need help, I will let Matt help you out :blink: You won't receive further help from me turning around and stabbing me in the back for trying to keep "excess noise" out of your thread. Thanks also for slandering my name in a place that all the world can see. . .


Karl,

I appreciate what you were trying to do, but that's not how it came across, at least not to me. My intent was not to slander your name, or stab you in the back, and if I have done so I apologize and ask moderators to remove the post in question. I applaud the fact that you have been explaining concepts like F-Stop on this forum numerous times and I hope that you continue to do so, this forum needs experienced, knowledgeable individuals like yourself. If you choose not to help me in the future, I will have to respect that, my loss. However, I hope other newcomers to the field can use your expertise.
  • 0

#11 K Borowski

K Borowski
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3905 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • I.A.T.S.E. Local # 600 Eastern Region

Posted 03 December 2007 - 02:14 AM

Karl,

I appreciate what you were trying to do, but that's not how it came across, at least not to me. My intent was not to slander your name, or stab you in the back, and if I have done so I apologize and ask moderators to remove the post in question. I applaud the fact that you have been explaining concepts like F-Stop on this forum numerous times and I hope that you continue to do so, this forum needs experienced, knowledgeable individuals like yourself. If you choose not to help me in the future, I will have to respect that, my loss. However, I hope other newcomers to the field can use your expertise.


Hey, if I came off too harshly, I apologize. I am happy to help people who ask genuinely earnest questions, or truly intend to use the knowledge they pick up here. I'm certain you fit this classification. Other people on this forum come across as less earnest, asking things in a manner that is almost mocking in intent. I find this extremely frustrating and occasionally put those words into writing, which is a childish, irresponsible thing to do.


Check out this thread:

http://www.cinematog...n...508&hl=stop

Now check out this one. . .

http://www.cinematog...showtopic=27413

I hope you see what I am getting at.


~KB
  • 0


Rig Wheels Passport

Glidecam

Aerial Filmworks

Tai Audio

Abel Cine

The Slider

Willys Widgets

Paralinx LLC

CineTape

Metropolis Post

Wooden Camera

Visual Products

Ritter Battery

CineLab

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Technodolly

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

rebotnix Technologies

FJS International, LLC

Opal

Willys Widgets

Opal

Metropolis Post

Ritter Battery

Tai Audio

Glidecam

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

CineTape

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineLab

Visual Products

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

rebotnix Technologies

FJS International, LLC

Technodolly

Wooden Camera

Aerial Filmworks

Abel Cine

The Slider

Paralinx LLC

Rig Wheels Passport