Jump to content


Photo

16 mm class 101


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 Tom Hepburn

Tom Hepburn
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 341 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago-land

Posted 03 December 2007 - 11:55 AM

Hello All,

This is my first post. A little background: I've shot some super 8 film on numerous occasions in school, but I would consider myself a beginner here.

I've just purchased a Kodak Cini K-100 Turret 16mm camera (see pict). I just had the lenses tested and cleaned by someone who came highly recommended here in town. Those of you who are familiar with this camera:

How does this relate to the 16mm and Super 16mm discussions here? I'm assuming this camera is a regular 16mm camera as it was built somewhere around 1960. If it is a regular 16, should I consider modifying it (if possible) to a super 16? If I do, how will that change the processing and scanning, if at all?

I'm shooting as a hobby for myself and will have it developed and scanned in (to a DV tape, so it will be interlaced) and edited on a computer.

Any other information that applies would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
T

Attached Images

  • K_100_sml.jpg

  • 0

#2 Will Montgomery

Will Montgomery
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2030 posts
  • Producer
  • Dallas, TX

Posted 03 December 2007 - 01:05 PM

Congratulations, you picked up a great camera.

It is a single perf camera, so widening the gate for Super 16 should be possible but I don't know if the lenses would cover the full area or not. It's not somethinig you need to do right away, get used to it as a straight up 16mm first.

As far as buying film, order direct from Kodak for best prices & shipping costs. 1-800-621-FILM (3456)

Processing: There are plent of labs around the country that process 16mm. In Dallas I use The Lab @ Video Post & Transfer. I use AlphaCine in Seattle for 16mm & Super 8.

Transfer: This is where it starts to get expensive. There are some sponsors of this site that do a great job at a reasonable price. Cinelab stands well in the price/quality area and they process film as well.

I have a K-100 turret as well and here are my comments:

It runs longer than any other camera on one wind and it's pretty easy to wind... very good thing.
Build like a TANK.
Lenses can actually look pretty good.

Problem for me is focusing. While you can frame the image through the viewfinder, you have to guess at distance (or measure it, but who has time?) and set it that way. When it's focused correctly you can get a really good image.

I tried getting a reflex lens but found out the hard way that the version of the lens I got doesn't actually allow you to see focusing (why would anyone build that?) so while it looks cool and is a very sharp zoom lens, it doesn't help my focusing issue.

Posted Image
  • 0

#3 Chance Shirley

Chance Shirley
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 256 posts
  • Director

Posted 03 December 2007 - 04:24 PM

... (to a DV tape, so it will be interlaced)...


The DV footage will be interlaced. However, you can use software like Final Cut Pro or After Effects to remove the extraneous "pull down" frames and work with 24p (assuming you're shooting 24 fps) footage on you computer. Using that 24p footage to create a DVD will work better than using the original interlaced (29.97i) footage.

Also, no disrespect to Will, but I find Fuji has better 16mm prices than Kodak. My favorite Fuji retailer is www.FilmEmporium.com.
  • 0

#4 Will Montgomery

Will Montgomery
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2030 posts
  • Producer
  • Dallas, TX

Posted 03 December 2007 - 09:15 PM

Also, no disrespect to Will, but I find Fuji has better 16mm prices than Kodak. My favorite Fuji retailer is www.FilmEmporium.com.


Yes, Fuji is cheaper (unless you want black & white or reversal stock). You can order directly from Fuji too at 888-424-3854. They make you jump through a few hoops on your first order but it gets easier.

FilmEmporium is a good company and I'm sure there are a few other good retailers too but they are about $3 more for a 100 ft roll than buying direct unless you buy recans/short ends which can be fine of course but can also have issues. I haven't had good luck with recans.

I generally like Kodak's look better but that's totally my opinion and not something worth even mentioning due to the crazy long posts that will come.
  • 0

#5 Michael Lehnert

Michael Lehnert
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1086 posts
  • Other
  • London, UK / Basel, CH

Posted 03 December 2007 - 09:35 PM

Tim, congratulations to the K-100.

It's one of those forgotten gems. I first ever heard of it by reading Lenny Lipton's "Independent Filmmaking", and have never come across one.

I particularly love the turret construction and the alongsiding viewfinder lenses. Your picture makes this machine really shine :) .

Would you please be so kind and provide some info on the lenses that you have: the construction name, f-opening and focal length? Thanks.

I can't remember now, but is the K-100 having C-Mount, or an originary lens mount?

Welcome to cinematography.com, by the way, and welcome to cinematography, too!
  • 0

#6 Mark Dunn

Mark Dunn
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2426 posts
  • Other
  • London

Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:34 AM

Why not edit on film? For what you'd pay for a transfer you could probably find a pic-sync, Steenbeck and splicer. That's film-making.
  • 0

#7 Tom Hepburn

Tom Hepburn
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 341 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago-land

Posted 04 December 2007 - 08:51 AM

Hey All,

Thanks for the welcomes and the info. It's nice to have this community. It's the internet as it was intended (IMO).

I do have a follow up question if I can; I have 3 rolls of film I'm testing. Vision2 100, Vision2 200, and B&W 64, all negative. If I shoot all of it outside would I need to use a filter? If so, where does one buy a filter for a camera that's 50 years old:)

Also, do I understand this correctly; the difference between super 16 and regular 16 is that super takes advantage of the addition film that was formerly occupied by the second set of perforations? If so, how does the lens opening reach that extra film if it wasn't designed that way. Is that where the file comes in?

Michael Lehnert, the turret construction is solid to say the least. It's very heavy, but my tripod can handle it. I believe the lenses are 25, 50, and 75. In terms of Cmount and more detail, I'll have to check into it.

Chance Shirley, I do use AfterEffects and have been using the pulldown, thanks for the tip. Which leads me into Mark's comment;
Mark I have been editing digitally for some years now (Avid, Final Cut Pro, AfterEffects), so I'm much more articulate with those tools. Plus I can add layers of audio with very little effort.

Again, thanks for the responses and get used to seeing me around here more.

Tom

FYI, the picture that I attached isn't my personal camera, but the exact model. Mine is a little more worn, but the lenses are clean and works beautifully mechanically. I'll know for sure in a couple of weeks.
  • 0

#8 Will Montgomery

Will Montgomery
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2030 posts
  • Producer
  • Dallas, TX

Posted 04 December 2007 - 09:28 AM

For the Vision2 stocks you'll want to buy an 85A filter. That will make the colors look correct as sunlight has a much different "color temperature" than tungsten lights. Problem is you'll have to get a filter to match each of your lenses if they are slightly different sizes... the B&W won't need a filter although you can try a red filter for contrast or do some research on other filters for B&W photography.

You can get these filters at B&H Photo or Adorama or any big photo supply store.

If you know you'll be shooting outdoors consider just picking up some daylight film... 50D or 250D from Kodak or 64D, 500D from Fuji. There is a filter to make these stocks work indoors but it cuts down considerably on their ASA so if you're shooting indoors at all you're better off with tungsten based films.

You're right about Super 16, it employs a wider gate to cover that area of the film that used to be sprocket holes. Real Super 16 coversions involve recentering the lens on that entire area as well, but you can simply enlarge the gate if you want. In that case, some lenses won't cover the entire area and you'll get a curved black area on the edge of the film showing the edge of the lens. Not sure how the K100 lenses would work for Super 16. I have heard of these being converted though. This is something to explore after you've become comforatable with the camera and shooting film imo.

If you want to explore Super 16 you might consider picking up a Russian K3 camera and have that gate widened since they are so inexpensive. It would be a shame to mess up your K100 if it doesn't work.
  • 0

#9 Tom Hepburn

Tom Hepburn
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 341 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago-land

Posted 04 December 2007 - 10:46 PM

Hey Michael,

I took a look at the lenses and they are as follows:

Elgeet 2" F:1.5 Cini Navitar
Elgeet 3" F:1.9 Cini Navitar
Berthiot Cinor 1.8 F:2.5

It does have a C mount.

Tom



Tim, congratulations to the K-100.

It's one of those forgotten gems. I first ever heard of it by reading Lenny Lipton's "Independent Filmmaking", and have never come across one.

I particularly love the turret construction and the alongsiding viewfinder lenses. Your picture makes this machine really shine :) .

Would you please be so kind and provide some info on the lenses that you have: the construction name, f-opening and focal length? Thanks.

I can't remember now, but is the K-100 having C-Mount, or an originary lens mount?

Welcome to cinematography.com, by the way, and welcome to cinematography, too!


  • 0

#10 Michael Lehnert

Michael Lehnert
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1086 posts
  • Other
  • London, UK / Basel, CH

Posted 05 December 2007 - 03:57 PM

Hey Michael,

Elgeet 2" F:1.5 Cini Navitar
Elgeet 3" F:1.9 Cini Navitar
Berthiot Cinor 1.8 F:2.5



Thank you, Sir, for the info (*bows*)! :)

I wish you loads of joy with it ? hey, keep us posted how your endeavours proceed!
  • 0


FJS International, LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

rebotnix Technologies

Opal

Wooden Camera

Tai Audio

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Ritter Battery

Metropolis Post

CineLab

Visual Products

Paralinx LLC

CineTape

Technodolly

Willys Widgets

The Slider

Glidecam

Aerial Filmworks

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Abel Cine

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Opal

Glidecam

Technodolly

Tai Audio

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Paralinx LLC

Willys Widgets

rebotnix Technologies

CineTape

Ritter Battery

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

FJS International, LLC

Abel Cine

Metropolis Post

Rig Wheels Passport

The Slider

CineLab

Visual Products

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Wooden Camera

Aerial Filmworks