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can this person really be serious?


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#1 Sam Kim

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 02:58 AM

Here's what my friend forwarded me. I took a look and it was taken down I guess but this guy was completely serious from what i'm told.


Film Crew for Feature

Reply to: gigs-497910169@craigslist.org
Date: 2007-12-03, 6:24PM

Looking for a film crew...dp, ld, gaffer, audio etc. NO PAY. I've been watching all the posts on here and that seems to be the norm, so please don't flag me. I'm just trying to make a living like everyone else and there are people on here that love to work for free.
dp you need to supply equip like RED or Varicam
LD Full light kit, HMI

Thank you in advance.


The bay area as everyone tells me is great for corporate work and docs and some times indie work. We get a big feature that usually only union guys get to do but man o man this is embarrassing. Whether it's a joke or not this is how craigslist usually is. I want to do more features and I guess (like my fellow classmates have done) it means that I might have to move to LALA land.
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#2 Jess Haas

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:28 AM

Well if you need a change you could come to Austin. I am sure that I can find plenty of features for you to work for free on. You do own a Varicam right? :-)

What really bugs me is when people don't even want to offer decent deferred pay. I know that I will never actually get paid from deferred pay, but atleast it acknowledges that there is some value to the work that people are providing and gives them an incentive to try to do a good job.

~Jess
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#3 Michael Nash

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 03:34 AM

" I'm just trying to make a living like everyone else and there are people on here that love to work for free. "


The guy actually has the cojones to come out and say "I'm trying to make a living by depriving you of one."

Anytime a producer who's trying to produce a project for sale (i.e. for profit) asks crew or vendors to work for free, I have no problem pointing out to them that they're basically asking the crew to pay them for their film.

"Labor of love" is one thing; free labor for profit is just exploitation.
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#4 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:08 AM

Bubble burst, welcome to the world of indies. I don't mean to sound cynical or mean, but that's how this is until you can get a reel that will sell your skills to the right people. And then there is the part where you have to find those right people and somehow show them your stuff and convince them that you are the right person for the job.

I can't speak for everyone, but I when I started working, first I had to volunteer as a PA. Then, if one does a good job, and they need someone they may call one back. And then one slowly climbs the ladder, if lucky enough to be in the good with the powers that be. Especially in this line of work. Every one of us wants to be a famous Director, DP, etc. right off. I don't know where people get the idea that this industry is glamorous. These days I work on three of four features a year doing something I much rather not, so that I can go do what I really much rather do mostly FOR FREE in between features.

Unfortunately, that's just how it is when nobody knows just how talented and deserving of $1000 a day we truly are. I see twenty-somethings who have gotten some student film prize while in college maybe, and upon graduating they have to start working as a PA just like the rest of us, be it LA or London. It's called paying our dues.

A lot of people buy a digital camera thinking that it will propel them to where they want to go automatically. While it certainly may help, it is not automatic. Just try asking someone like David Mullen, ASC how easy it is to secure consistent high-paying gigs. And we are talking about talented, experienced and recognized people here.

Sure it helps if you know the right people, but otherwise, it is just a darn hard slog BEFORE one can actually start making some cash doing this film making thing. I don't mean to give you a lecture, but hey, you asked!
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#5 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:11 AM

That particular guy may be a jerk, since it looks like he is trying to make a buck off of the project, but believe me: I am confronted by situation this ALL the time.


Sorry if I was brash on the earlier response anyway.
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#6 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 04:31 AM

That particular guy may be a jerk, since it looks like he is trying to make a buck off of the project, but believe me: I am confronted by this situation ALL the time.

All time worst: I did some HD to DV conversion work for a guy who six months later kept on calling me as I was working on a feature film to resolve some issues he had noticed six months earlier on the tape I gave him. Sure, I believe in customer satisfaction. Thing is he, never bothered telling me about it then, but now he was going to submit that same tape to a film festival and the deadline is something like two days later. So he wants me to do this, like by tomorrow. And I am working 12 to 14 hrs on this feature, right? And he is calling me and texting me real desperate-like. I told him I couldn't deal with it until the weekend. After a lot of back and forth exchanges where I tried to explain my predicament and his not being very reasonable, he actually replied that he had given me $20 dollars six months earlier. So what kind of person was I for not drop everything I had going on then to rush to his aid when he had neglected to tell me about the problems when he first noticed them six moths before? Some nerve on this guy.

Sorry if I was brash on the earlier response anyway.
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#7 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 09:38 AM

I'm sure if this is the entry, but I believe someone on DVinfo, following a huge thread on this sort of request being advertised on Craigslist, was going to put on a spoof ad.

Edited by Brian Drysdale, 04 December 2007 - 09:39 AM.

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#8 Walter Graff

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 09:48 AM

Guess you folks haven't looked at the ads on Mandy lately. This is common today. No pay but a DVD/Free lunch/A piece when we sell it and make it beg,/etc. Doesn't look like a fluke to me. One of the many 'newbreed' of overnight filmmakers/producers who have caught he technology wave and now think they are what others have worked for 20 years to achieve, and hence why they don't understand reality. Guys like me can laugh at it but I feel sympathy for the new guys out there who will find this more and more in the lower level areas of produciton.
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#9 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 10:04 AM

Here's a really good rant on not paying people:

http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=mj5IV23g-fE
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#10 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 12:15 PM

The difference between here and LA is that in LA you do a bunch of those, then start working on better stuff.

Here you do a bunch of those, then you do a bunch more of those.

Eventually you go "fu** this" and put dramatic filmmaking in the effectively-unavailable pile, and you get over it.

Phil
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#11 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 12:22 PM

I don't mind if people are looking for free crew, everybody's worked for free at one point or another and that's just how nearly everyone starts out.

But if they're looking for a DP who owns his/her own $20,000+ HD or film camera, you know they're just out to get the free equipment rental while you're still stuck paying the bills without any income to pay it off. And that's what annoys me about most craigslist posts.

I've conditioned myself to just sense early in on the posting, and then move onto the next one.

There are some posts that are truly looking for a good collaborative effort for creating art and accomplishing something...and then there are those people who just want free equipment to make their silly webisodes.
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#12 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 08:45 PM

Hey, he can put anything in there he wants to, but how many people do you think are gonna actually respond to an ad like this? :rolleyes: Even if a project is "differed pay" some people will do it for fun or for the chance to keep their skills up or get experience, I've done it myself to help out friends who made a commitment, but this clown is an idiot so I doubt if ANYONE is gonna deal with that and if they do, they deserve what they get, I mean how stupid can you be? B)
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#13 Michael Nash

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 09:19 PM

Even if a project is "differed pay" some people will do it for fun or for the chance to keep their skills up or get experience


Yes, a free Varicam certainly "differs" from the norm...

Sorry, couldn't resist :P
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#14 Walter Graff

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 10:57 PM

The difference between here and LA is that in LA you do a bunch of those, then start working on better stuff.

Here you do a bunch of those, then you do a bunch more of those.

Eventually you go "fu** this" and put dramatic filmmaking in the effectively-unavailable pile, and you get over it.

Phil


Great post Phil!!! Right on target.
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#15 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 11:17 PM

What really bugs me is when people don't even want to offer decent deferred pay. I know that I will never actually get paid from deferred pay, but atleast it acknowledges that there is some value to the work that people are providing and gives them an incentive to try to do a good job.

~Jess


Are you saying as long as someone lies to your face it somehow shows that they respect the work you are going to do? Isn't this kind of like telling a girl you love her (when you don't) so she'll sleep with you?

If it were me and if it's known that the deferred pay is never going to be paid, then a daily "stipend" for gas & mileage, plus a good crafts service and food would be the minimum that one should offer, no? Plus a safe set and the work hours can't be long.
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#16 Jess Haas

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 11:46 PM

When I said that I know I will never actually get paid from deferred pay I did not mean that they were lieing to my face. The sad fact of the matter is that most of these films will never make any money so there is very little chance of deferred pay ever coming through.

If someone is trying to make a film with little to no budget, can't afford to pay well, but agrees to give me some of the profits if they ever make any money off of it they are atleast showing that they know that I am worth more than they are able to pay me.

On the other hand if someone offers to pay you nothing and intends to keep all of the profits for themselves they are saying that they don't value your work and that they simply want to exploit you.

~Jess
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#17 Walter Graff

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 11:52 PM

When I said that I know I will never actually get paid from deferred pay I did not mean that they were lieing to my face. The sad fact of the matter is that most of these films will never make any money so there is very little chance of deferred pay ever coming through.

If someone is trying to make a film with little to no budget, can't afford to pay well, but agrees to give me some of the profits if they ever make any money off of it they are atleast showing that they know that I am worth more than they are able to pay me.

On the other hand if someone offers to pay you nothing and intends to keep all of the profits for themselves they are saying that they don't value your work and that they simply want to exploit you.

~Jess



Try to get paid if, I said if they make a dollar. Sort of like patents. Patents aren't about getting one, but spending the rest of your life suing everyone for stealing it. Differed means free anyway you slice it. Nothing wrong if you want the experience, but let's look at how many deferred payments amounted to anything more than bus fare.
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#18 Jess Haas

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Posted 05 December 2007 - 12:31 AM

I don't disagree, and I am luckily not in a position to need to be working on features for free anymore. I have worked on a number of films where I was paid but it was not what my normal rate would be since they had such a small budget. To make up for this they gave me deferred pay. I have never seen a penny from it but it is nice that they at least acknowledged the fact that my work is worth more than their budget allowed. On the off chance that any of those films ever make any money they have committed to giving me some of it which is a nice gesture.

The most recent film I did where I was given deferred pay I asked for more deferred pay than they were offering since I felt that what I was getting payed and the deferred should at least add up to more than my normal rate. They said that they couldn't do it because it would have been more than they were giving a particular someone else, but they offered to give me a higher rate for some of the equipment I was renting them than I had asked them for. I couldn't really argue with getting more real money in exchange for giving in on how much fake money I was getting ;-)

~Jess
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#19 Walter Graff

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Posted 05 December 2007 - 12:48 AM

I always love when the math isn't quite right like this:

HDV shooters needed for medical reality television program filming in the area. Shooting will take place between late April and mid-November. Day-player and weekly staff shooter positions are available. Transportation and equipment will be provided.

Requirements:

Applicants must have experience with verite style shooting and prior credits in reality TV, news or documentaries. Applicants must have strong knowledge of DV/HDV cameras and the ability to monitor sound recording while in the field. Prior experience with medical content is strongly preferred and candidates must be able to work well in very sensitive situations.

Reels & References must be available upon request.

Salary: $350-$400/day, $850-900/week
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#20 Robert Starling SOC

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Posted 05 December 2007 - 01:43 AM

There are some posts that are truly looking for a good collaborative effort for creating art and accomplishing something...and then there are those people who just want free equipment to make their silly webisodes.


You're right, and it also depends a lot on where you are in your career and financial situation, and yes you do learn to read between the lines on pro bono and even paying jobs as to whether it is worth your time. I still enjoy working on a few student and low budget projects, even with almost 29 years in the business behind me; the last two were an absolute blast. Frankly a thousand times better than a few full rate gigs I did in 07'

At least to me, there is huge difference in some kook who's out there running around half cocked with no idea WTF they are doing, where it's going or anything else. What I love to see is someone with a great script, vision, great passion and professional commitment to themselves, their fellow craftspersons and the art of filmmaking. I'll do almost anything to help the ones with the fire in their eye and in their hearts. Maybe I just like to see and work with the ones who "get it" and who deserve a little help.

In early 2007 two projects came my way that at first sounded pretty flakey on the phone, but I read the scripts, talked with the Producers / Directors and DPs and eventually determined they were projects worth doing for a lot of reasons. The money wasn't my full rate or rental but I wasn't there for the money. Both projects ended up being two of my favorites from the whole year. Everyone there was worth 10x more than they were getting paid but not one single person complained, not one and you couldn't have found a more appreciative respectful crew. We had crew and actors volunteering their time who had hundreds of award winning prime time episodic TV and feature film credits to their name, and a boat load of beginners too. Under the right circumstance a little volunteer work can be more rewarding personally than a paycheck... but I like paychecks too and if you feel like you're being taken advantage of, you probably are.

Robert Starling, SOC
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Las Vegas, NV
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