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Original Red Cameras to be Replaced


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#1 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 05:56 AM

Hi All,

Red is recalling all the original 100 cameras & is replacing them free of charge. Red is paying the shipping costs both ways.

Impressive after sales service.

Will camera 88 that sold on Ebay also be replaced? the guarantee is for original owners. As a potential purchaser of a used camera I am interested in the answer to this one.

Stephen
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#2 Max Jacoby

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 06:15 AM

Impressive after sales service.

Did they have a choice? Releasing a product before it is ready can turn out to be quite expensive ;)
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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 06:23 AM

Did they have a choice? Releasing a product before it is ready can turn out to be quite expensive ;)


Hi Max,

The owners seemed happy enough with the original ones, better than film I heard several times.

I am interested to see if the quality of images posted somewhere else improves with the new cameras.

Stephen
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#4 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 06:29 AM

Will camera 88 that sold on Ebay also be replaced? the guarantee is for original owners. As a potential purchaser of a used camera I am interested in the answer to this one.

Stephen


Jim emailed me the following answer:-

I cannot seem to post a reply. You can post this from me if you wish.

"In this case we will waive the $500 warranty certification charge
(for transferred ownership) and replace #88 at no charge like all the
rest.

When the 1st 100 cameras come back to RED, we will update them to
current specs and put them all in the demo/service pool."

Jim
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#5 Lars Zemskih

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 07:29 AM

Stephen, did the cameras arrive to UK rentals though already?
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#6 Mark Williams

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 07:37 AM

That is superb customer service! Impressive.
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#7 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 09:28 AM

Stephen, did the cameras arrive to UK rentals though already?


Hi,

I only know of 1 UK camera at present.

Stephen
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 09:35 AM

That is superb customer service! Impressive.


Hi,

I think the alternative of possibly having some sub par cameras, would be far worse for Red in the long term.

Stephen
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#9 Mitch Gross

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 10:18 AM

I agree that it is excellent service to customers and good business sense for RED. There were enough changes made (CF card reader, lens mount, sensor driver board, probably a bunch of stuff no one knows about) that it is simply easier and more efficient to replace the cameras. So as a pioneer in the first 100 you get a beta=test camera for a few months and then a brand new camera. Very nice indeed.
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#10 Jim Jannard

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 10:22 AM

Hi,

I think the alternative of possibly having some sub par cameras, would be far worse for Red in the long term.

Stephen


Stephen... Soderbergh shot two movies on RED prototypes and has said he will shoot his next feature starring Matt Damon "all RED". I don't think you can say that the 1st 100 were sub-par. Actually he shot "Guerrilla" on Beta prototypes and "The Argentine" on pre-production REDs.

Jim
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#11 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 10:35 AM

Obviously if there's a problem with them they need to be replaced, fine (and if there isn't a problem with them, why replace them...)

But I have a hard time seeing this as a triumph - more a confirmation that the things were rushed out the door to avoid the loss of face associated with a late delivery after making such a big noise prelaunch.

Phil
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#12 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 10:50 AM

All the 35mm single-sensor digital cameras like the Arri-D20, Phantom, Dalsa, have been under continuous refinement since they first came out -- they have never been "finished", which is why they have mostly been for rental-only.

I think more costumers have been happier to get their RED's, even unfinished, than to have them delayed. Especially since the RED team has been so diligent about doing the upgrades free of charge, and now even swapping out the early cameras. In the meanwhile, these early customers have had a lot of input into how the camera gets modified.

It's just a different model of working than releasing the DVX100, let's say, and then giving all the improvements the costumers demanded in the DVX100B a year later.

Having spent a day with many early RED owners at the big LART event testing the cameras, they are all pretty happy about their purchases -- I mean, why not? Almost every problem they run into is getting addressed one way or another, so they will not get penalized for being an early adopter.

I also think that the pressure of getting these problems worked out for the owners has accelerated the pace of refinement for the RED compared to the rental-only Arri-D20, for example, so the camera will be stronger for that.

Sure, maybe they should have released the original set of cameras in January 2008 instead of September 2007, but I'm not sure if that's worth harping on.
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#13 Jim Jannard

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 10:54 AM

Obviously if there's a problem with them they need to be replaced, fine (and if there isn't a problem with them, why replace them...)

But I have a hard time seeing this as a triumph - more a confirmation that the things were rushed out the door to avoid the loss of face associated with a late delivery after making such a big noise prelaunch.

Phil


Obviously, you are here to push my buttons (again). We simply improved the cameras... significantly. So we decided to upgrade all of our early customers. Pretty easy. Just because other companies don't do this is no reason to assume anything on your part. You haven't bought a camera. You haven't shot a RED camera. You are not a customer. Our customers seem very happy with the cameras they received, our philosophy and our decisions. Every customer was told in advance that they were early adopters and had the right to wait for delivery. They choose to take delivery. And now they are rewarded with a new camera with many advancements. What is wrong with this again? I forgot.

Jim
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#14 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 11:07 AM

Yes, Jim, obviously I joined the forum anticipating your presence a clear two years before you arrived simply to piss you off. You came here.

You're an expert spin doctor, I'll give you that.

Phil
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#15 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 11:28 AM

Jim, Phil complains about a lot of other people's technology too, just that you're the only manufacturer who read them and responds here. The owners of S-Two clearly don't read or care about some of Phil's comments about their product...

Two years ago there was a lot of negative posts about Panavision's development of the Genesis too (not necessarily from Phil). Phil and Alan Lasky from Dalsa used to regularly squabble over the resolution of the 4K Bayer sensor, and that particular discussion has just spilled into the RED now that Alan isn't at Dalsa but RED has arrived.

We run the gamut here, pro and con and inbetween, which is healthy to some extent... unless it gets out of control. The consistenly negative posters are few but vocal. And I sort of separate people who are merely skeptical from people who are consistently negative. Skeptical people are just cautious until proven otherwise, doesn't mean they can't change their minds over time. The skeptics here outweigh the truly negative types.

The situation is naturally flipflopped over at the RED User site, there you have a small but hardcore group that are consistenly positive about everything. I'm not sure that is necessarily any more productive than the opposite end of the spectrum.
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#16 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 11:41 AM

Stephen... Soderbergh shot two movies on RED prototypes and has said he will shoot his next feature starring Matt Damon "all RED". I don't think you can say that the 1st 100 were sub-par. Actually he shot "Guerrilla" on Beta prototypes and "The Argentine" on pre-production REDs.

Jim


Hi Jim,

Ok not sub par, just ever so slightly inferior cameras, but still called RED One.

Stephen
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#17 Lance Flores

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 11:51 AM

All the 35mm single-sensor digital cameras like the Arri-D20, Phantom, Dalsa, have been under continuous refinement since they first came out -- they have never been "finished", which is why they have mostly been for rental-only.

I think more costumers have been happier to get their RED's, even unfinished, than to have them delayed. Especially since the RED team has been so diligent about doing the upgrades free of charge, and now even swapping out the early cameras. In the meanwhile, these early customers have had a lot of input into how the camera gets modified.

It's just a different model of working than releasing the DVX100, let's say, and then giving all the improvements the costumers demanded in the DVX100B a year later.

Having spent a day with many early RED owners at the big LART event testing the cameras, they are all pretty happy about their purchases -- I mean, why not? Almost every problem they run into is getting addressed one way or another, so they will not get penalized for being an early adopter.

I also think that the pressure of getting these problems worked out for the owners has accelerated to pace of refinement for the RED compared to the rental-only Arri-D20, for example, so the camera will be stronger for that.

Sure, maybe they should have released the original set of cameras in January 2008 instead of September 2007, but I'm not sure if that's worth harping on.


Quite agree David. I must say, you are among a few productive contributors to this forum, that makes it worth while coming back. Reflective of the type work you've done. Having worked so long on the bleeding edge of technology I appreciate what Red is attempting to accomplish. Incredible task. They're not there yet, but I'm impressed with their dedication to their customer base. I think they'll be just fine.
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#18 Mitch Gross

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 12:05 PM

Phil, who says an improvement translates to correcting a problem? It may have been perfectly acceptable before but even better now. Do you seriously think that there is ANY product out there (forget just the film industry) that was not improved over the course of its lifespan? The fact that RED brought back in the first 100 to give all the early adopters the improvements is generous, not something to harp on. And I'm sure that if there was a current RED owner who yelled & screamed that he wanted to leave his camera just the way it was then RED would say fine & dandy, though I can't imagine anyone not wanting an improved product.
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#19 Lance Flores

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 12:12 PM

Phil, who says an improvement translates to correcting a problem? It may have been perfectly acceptable before but even better now. Do you seriously think that there is ANY product out there (forget just the film industry) that was not improved over the course of its lifespan? The fact that RED brought back in the first 100 to give all the early adopters the improvements is generous, not something to harp on. And I'm sure that if there was a current RED owner who yelled & screamed that he wanted to leave his camera just the way it was then RED would say fine & dandy, though I can't imagine anyone not wanting an improved product.


Well said, Mitch. Just shot the improved Phantom HD. I think this upgrading products might just catch on.
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#20 Stephen Williams

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 12:18 PM

Well said, Mitch. Just shot the improved Phantom HD. I think this upgrading products might just catch on.


Hi,

The one I shot with in the summer was quite hopeless, pleased it's now usable.

Stephen
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Metropolis Post

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Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

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