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Why We Fight


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#1 Annie Wengenroth

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 11:43 PM

I'm doing my weekly homework regarding the writer's strike, trying to keep updated and see how everybody is faring. (:() Doug Hart sent me this video a few weeks ago, bless his soul, and I thought I'd post it in case you guys haven't seen it yet:

The WGA Strike Explained: Why We Fight

There are other good videos on that page as well. And a funny one that involves the strike as explained by a 5-year old.

As long as I'm still on the subject, let me ask you guys this...I'm not allowed to stand on WGA picket lines since I'm in 600, because Steven Poster will come to my apartment, murder my cat, and then drag me outside and feed me to the Rottweiler next door. So...what CAN I do to help, then? I feel helpless. And sort of guilty.
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#2 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 12:13 AM

Well with respect to Frank Capra's WWII series, the title's a presumptuous don't you think? After all we're talking royalties here not the the struggle of civilized human beings against the greatest threat to freedom the world had ever known.....unless of course, you consider most producers Nazis.....which SOME people might, BUT producers are NOT Nazis....they don't even wear the armbands.....well, at least III'VE never seen them wear it.....you know except in that movie The Producers when Max Bialystock and Leo Bloom wear them while talk Franz Liebkind into letting them produce his play Springtime for Hitler.....but they took them off when they went into the street.....other than that.....you know never.....that I can remember. :huh:

Edited by James Steven Beverly, 12 December 2007 - 12:14 AM.

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#3 Annie Wengenroth

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 12:54 AM

Is it wrong to laugh at the mental picture of producers wearing armbands?

...I love that movie.

When I saw the title of the video it made me want to blast Sham 69's "If The Kids Are United" and start a TOTALLY SICK MOSH PIT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE UNION OFFICE! IT SOUNDS SO XHARDCOREX! But that's just me and my anarchist roots. :P

Anyway, I kinda feel like any information is better than people being left in the dark, and even though the title's a little over the top, at least someone out there tried to explain things in a way that made sense to my parents, who couldn't understand why I wanted to borrow $1000 just in case....
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#4 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 01:55 AM

In NYC, 1000 bucks should last you till about 6:25PM tomorrow afternoon, better ask for 2 grand and tell them you may have to move back home for a while.....I'd say be prepared to live in your car but parking would probably run more than your rent! 'Course living in your car is still better that Jersey. :rolleyes:
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#5 Kirsty Stark

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 02:36 AM

Thanks for posting this, Annie. It's good to have more of an understanding of the issues involved.

Hopefully things are resolved soon, and none of you are too greatly affected in the meantime.
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#6 Paul Maibaum ASC

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 10:33 AM

As a Local 600 member if the WGA is picketing your workplace, the "no-strike clause" in our contract means that you are bound by the contract to report for work or suffer whatever consequences the employer deigns fit. However, you can march all day long in front of Rockefeller Center (or wherever they're picketing in NYC) in support of the WGA if it doesn't prevent you from carrying out your duties on a Local 600 job.
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#7 John Sprung

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 07:23 PM

Well with respect to Frank Capra's WWII series, the title's a presumptuous don't you think? After all we're talking royalties here not the the struggle of civilized human beings against the greatest threat to freedom the world had ever known.....

After all these years, the expedient propaganda of the time still obscures the reality of WWII. It wasn't a pure moral "crusade". It was an uncomfortable and morally ambiguous alliance with one evil to secure the defeat of another. Did it save democracy? Yes. But to an even greater extent, it saved communism. I don't think we can with any clear certainty pick which of them was the greatest evil or the greatest threat to freedom.




-- J.S.
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#8 Annie Wengenroth

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 12:14 AM

Thank you for clearing that up, Paul. I swear to god I'm still reading all the paperwork they gave me when I first joined 600! It sure does make a nice centerpiece on my coffee table though.

I must admit, by the way, that I DID consider trying to find a really cheap apartment in Jersey City and commuting to jobs via the PATH train. Yes. I was in fact, out of my mind. :D
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#9 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 04:10 AM

After all these years, the expedient propaganda of the time still obscures the reality of WWII. It wasn't a pure moral "crusade". It was an uncomfortable and morally ambiguous alliance with one evil to secure the defeat of another. Did it save democracy? Yes. But to an even greater extent, it saved communism. I don't think we can with any clear certainty pick which of them was the greatest evil or the greatest threat to freedom.




-- J.S.


Hitler broke his non-aggression pact with Stalin basically because Goering failed to destroy British air power due to British radar and intelligence superiority, which would have cleared the way for an invasion of England. This left Hitler, who had based his regime on aggression and conquest with a political problem. In order to keep his regime's economy solvent (he had simply printed money to end Germany's catastrophic depression with no backing what so every) and keep the German's minds off of their loss of civil liberties and internal corruption, he needed to keep the war going to bolster patriotism. He also didn't trust Stalin with good reason and so Operation Barbarossa was implemented. Once the Communists were attacked, it would have been foolish for the Allies to not have taken advantage of their alliance to hasten Hitler's demise which at the time was the immediate threat. One also has to remember that Stalin's purges, political imprisonments which lead to many deaths and out and out political and paranoia motivated executions were largely an internal Soviet affair that did not effect the West until after the traitors how had worked on the bomb in some sick, misguided attempt at personally balancing world power gave it to the Communists. The US, prior to WWII was in it's own deep internal crisis trying to dig it's self out of the Great Depression and had very little time for foreign entanglements especially after the debacle of the league of Nations that let the the second World War it the first place. England and France's unreasonable war reparations coupled with a world depression after the collapse of the Dollar was what allowed Hitler to gain power in the first place. Once Japan attacked and America was drawn into the war, the stage was already set. In point of fact, had Hitler NOT attacked Russia, he may have very well been able to force England into a peace treaty and the US would have focused it's attentions on Japan, leaving Hitler's empire in Europe in tacked.

If his regime had not collapsed economically, which it may well have not sense he them would have had all the resources of Europe at his disposal, he would have gathered his strength, developed his advanced weaponry and possibly even developed the bomb parallel to the US (though the heavy water experiments, by many scientist's account, would most likely never have succeeded in producing a sustained reaction so although possible it's unlikely). In any event it is unlikely the US would have gone to war with Germany under those circumstances until we had defeated Japan which would have led to a confrontation with a much stronger Nazified Europe later that would have no doubt been a nuclear one and my guess, given the Nazi mentality, not a cold war. Hitler HAD to be defeated and we HAD to have Russian help to do it, there was no choice. Once he was defeated and the Russians had the bomb, a shooting war was out of the question, so we fought a cold war for 40 years to defeat that threat to humanity. Hitler was responsible for 10 million deaths, Stalin was responsible for 20 million deaths, we eventually defeated both of their regimes, I find nothing morally ambiguous about that, simple that we were only able to do what we could under the circumstances and apparently that was the right decision because their systems of governments are gone and we're still here. B)
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#10 Mark Dunn

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 06:30 AM

I don't think we can with any clear certainty pick which of them was the greatest evil or the greatest threat to freedom.




-- J.S.

Well I can.
My country paid a very high price for victory and I would remind you that for over two years, we paid it alone.
Hiljacking the name of a series of films about the fight against a monstrous tyranny for this dubious middle-class spat between well-off people operating in a free market is a bit rich.
And yes, you have touched a raw nerve. You're only free to express such a daft opinion because England kept Hitler at bay while America thought about it.
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#11 Hal Smith

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 01:05 PM

........... Did it save democracy? Yes. But to an even greater extent, it saved communism.............

For another forty years. Don't count the Chinese as Communist, I don't know what the heck they are but Communists? No for certain. They don't even have what few benefits the Russians had under Communism like guaranteed health care.
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#12 Richard Boddington

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 01:23 PM

Well I can.
My country paid a very high price for victory and I would remind you that for over two years, we paid it alone.
Hiljacking the name of a series of films about the fight against a monstrous tyranny for this dubious middle-class spat between well-off people operating in a free market is a bit rich.
And yes, you have touched a raw nerve. You're only free to express such a daft opinion because England kept Hitler at bay while America thought about it.


Ahhh excuse me buddy..."we paid it alone." Yeah right!! Canada was there with the UK from the first day of WWII, so where a lot of other countries. Pilots from all over the globe flew in the Battle Of Britain, including 10 American pilots.

England did NOT as many UK folk believe these days stand up to Hitler alone for two years. Canada paid a very high price for early entry into the war as well. Where do you think the pilots trained for the RAF? Canada. What country took in the UKs children? Canada. What navy kept the war supplies flowing to the UK from North America?, Canada. What country was to take in Churchill if the NAZIS invaded? Canada.

The list goes on and on and on.

R,
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#13 John Sprung

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 02:17 PM

Well I can.
My country paid a very high price for victory and I would remind you that for over two years, we paid it alone.
Hiljacking the name of a series of films about the fight against a monstrous tyranny for this dubious middle-class spat between well-off people operating in a free market is a bit rich.
And yes, you have touched a raw nerve. You're only free to express such a daft opinion because England kept Hitler at bay while America thought about it.

Mark,

I agree with every word of your post except "daft".

The crimes of Hitler are well documented, and the evidence is well preserved. His European empire was overrun in less than a year. The Nazis made some attempts to destroy evidence, for instance Sobibor and Treblinka. But it's not likely that they were successful in concealing much.

The crimes of Stalin were less centralized, and carried out over a much longer time, mostly without the pressure of a simultaneous war. The huge slave labor construction projects of the 1930's, the purges, the gulags that outlived him by decades -- the calculus of misery and death may tip to Stalin. Certainly the communists were much better at secrecy, concealment, and destruction of evidence. It may be decades more before a thorough investigation becomes politically acceptable in the lands where the evidence exists.

I don't deny the evil of Hitler. It's just that I don't necessarily award him the championship.





-- J.S.
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#14 Mark Dunn

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 02:18 PM

Ahhh excuse me buddy..."we paid it alone." Yeah right!! Canada was there with the UK from the first day of WWII, so where a lot of other countries. Pilots from all over the globe flew in the Battle Of Britain, including 10 American pilots.

England did NOT as many UK folk believe these days stand up to Hitler alone for two years. Canada paid a very high price for early entry into the war as well. Where do you think the pilots trained for the RAF? Canada. What country took in the UKs children? Canada. What navy kept the war supplies flowing to the UK from North America?, Canada. What country was to take in Churchill if the NAZIS invaded? Canada.

The list goes on and on and on.

R,

I was bound to upset someone, shooting from the hip like that, and I'm sorry.
Of course we couldn't have survived without the Dominions, Empire and Commonwealth. I'm well aware of their contribution. I even know about the Eagle Squadrons. I should have taken more careful aim at the notion that we had a choice between Hitler and Stalin.
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#15 John Sprung

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 02:26 PM

For another forty years. Don't count the Chinese as Communist, I don't know what the heck they are but Communists? No for certain.

Yup. Fascism ended with a cut, communism with a fade out that's almost complete.



-- J.S.
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#16 John Sprung

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 03:33 PM

I should have taken more careful aim at the notion that we had a choice between Hitler and Stalin.

Indeed we didn't have that choice. It was Hitler who made the choice for us.




-- J.S.
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#17 John Sprung

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 03:46 PM

Hitler broke his non-aggression pact with Stalin basically because ....

James,

There's a lot here, and we're getting way off topic. Let me just suggest that you look for a book by Richard Overy, "Why the Allies Won" (W.W. Norton, 1995). It's a real good look at the aspects of the war that appear to interest you.



-- J.S.
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#18 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 11:33 PM

I was bound to upset someone, shooting from the hip like that, and I'm sorry.
Of course we couldn't have survived without the Dominions, Empire and Commonwealth. I'm well aware of their contribution. I even know about the Eagle Squadrons. I should have taken more careful aim at the notion that we had a choice between Hitler and Stalin.


Let's not forget the American "Lend/Lease" program which kept arms and supplies flowing to England through out the war. Had America not dedicated herself to giving England the tools to carry on the struggle, she would have surely fell to Nazi aggression and as much as England suffered, which was greatly, The French and Poles suffering was unimaginable, even more so was Russian territory while it was in Nazi hands. Stalingrad was perhaps the most nightmarish place on Earth during the siege. Also the greatest casualty rate of any service during the war was suffered by American bomber crews flying sorties over Germany. Literally 1 in 3 men were killed in these raids to end Nazi tyranny, a horrible price to pay fro freedom, but worth every sacrificed. They truly were "The Greatest Generation."
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#19 Richard Boddington

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 12:34 AM

"They truly were "The Greatest Generation."

They also made black people sit in the back of the bus, and set German shepherds & fire hoses on them. Refused to allow women to have any job other than teacher, nurse, or secretary. They are also the generation that sat out the first two years of WWII. The war started in 39 not 41 :blink:

They did a good job during WWII but there was a dark side that people seem to have forgotten.

R,
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#20 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 01:45 AM

They're not the only ones, guy, look at us. Besides, they were the ones that started true civil rights reform and integration with the Tuskegee Airmen, the eventual integration of the military. The women's movement had it's seeds in the Rosie the Riveters who kept American industry alive and producing, freeing up most of the male population to fight Nazi tyranny.

After WWI was it any wonder Americans were not in any hurry to involve themselves in another all out European war? The pettiness shown by the League of Nations destroyed American faith in Europe's sense of honor and duty and as I said before lead to WWII. Also let us not forget that if Chamberlain, Briton and France had drawn a line in the sand with the annexation of Austria and not tolerated and in many cases supported the Nazi regime and crushed Hitler in the very beginning, they wouldn't have had to fight a prolonged devastating war.

They were human not infallible and they had human weekness, stupidity, bigotry and short comings but what they did saved humanity from it's self and brought about the world we know today and for that we owe them our everlasting respect and gratitude.

Edited by James Steven Beverly, 14 December 2007 - 01:49 AM.

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