Jump to content


Photo

"Alternative" 65mm


  • Please log in to reply
8 replies to this topic

#1 Filip Plesha

Filip Plesha
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1267 posts
  • Other
  • Croatia

Posted 22 December 2007 - 09:43 AM

Hi there

I've been trying to find out (out of curiosity) what kind of cameras exist for recording 65mm 8-perf and 10-perf negatives.

Now, I did find that fries makes (or did make) 865 model, for 8-perf work

But this is probably the only such camera I've heard about.

IWERKS used this format, so I assume they had to use some kind of cameras, but which manufacturer and model, was it this Fries?

And in history, were there any other such cameras, or even modifications of 5-perf models (if that's possible)

And, what about 10-perf, are there any cameras that shoot in this format?

thank you

Edited by Filip Plesha, 22 December 2007 - 09:43 AM.

  • 1

#2 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 23 December 2007 - 05:08 PM

http://www.arandafil...ages/page2.html

Bruce "No pooftas" McNaughton can build you anything. If I could afford it, I'd love a 12 perf 35mm movement. That's true widescreen, high res image capture in my book.
  • 0

#3 John Sprung

John Sprung
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4635 posts
  • Other

Posted 26 December 2007 - 02:19 PM

I'd love a 12 perf 35mm movement.

There was such a camera built about 10-12 years ago by some guys from the optical printing business. Searching my computer came up empty, searching my unreliable old brain came up eventually with the name Jim Martin. Of course, I could be wrong about that. Anyhow, they had a prototype camera up and running, with the idea that 12 perf side pull would let you print 1:1 into the 65/70 5 perf system. That way you could shoot and develop anywhere in the world without having to special order 65mm film.




-- J.S.
  • 0

#4 Leo Anthony Vale

Leo Anthony Vale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2010 posts
  • Other
  • Pittsburgh PA

Posted 26 December 2007 - 02:32 PM

Bruce "No pooftas" McNaughton can build you anything. If I could afford it, I'd love a 12 perf 35mm movement. That's true widescreen, high res image capture in my book.


Prior to the new owners switching to 70mm , Cinerama was working on a 15 or 16 perf 35mm camera with an arced gate like a Widelux panoramic still camera. I suppose this would also have had a rotating lens.
The neg would have been optically printed to the 3-strip 6-perf format. The height of horizontal 35mm is equivalent to 5-perf, so the blow up would have been minimal.
  • 0

#5 Leo Anthony Vale

Leo Anthony Vale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2010 posts
  • Other
  • Pittsburgh PA

Posted 26 December 2007 - 02:49 PM

IWERKS used this format, so I assume they had to use some kind of cameras, but which manufacturer and model, was it this Fries?


Iwerks uses Iwerks 870 cameras. If Iwerks doesn't actually build it themselves, it's made by MSM, which builds an MSM 870 in addition to Imax cameras, including a "hand holdable" Imax camera. Of course one needs really big hands.

The only references I can find on the internet to MSM are references in the HinesLab site.
More proof that the internet's reputation for having everythinf on it is vastly overrated.

Personally I like the idea of an 8-perf camera system that uses 2x anamorphics. It would be almost the same as CinemaScope 55, but a bit wider. 2.75/1 (like Ultra Panavision) vs 2.55/1. Both are wider than necessary,
but one could get 70mm Cinerama type prints from the 865 system.
  • 0

#6 Mitch Gross

Mitch Gross
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2873 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 26 December 2007 - 10:49 PM

There was such a camera built about 10-12 years ago by some guys from the optical printing business. Searching my computer came up empty, searching my unreliable old brain came up eventually with the name Jim Martin. Of course, I could be wrong about that. Anyhow, they had a prototype camera up and running, with the idea that 12 perf side pull would let you print 1:1 into the 65/70 5 perf system. That way you could shoot and develop anywhere in the world without having to special order 65mm film.




-- J.S.

I seem to recall seeing this prototype rig at a trade show somewhere, perhaps the old Showbiz Expo. I remember the gate was perforated so that it could work with a vacuum pump to hold that huge frame of film flat to the gate. I can only imagine what such a beast would sound like when rolling.
  • 0

#7 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19759 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 27 December 2007 - 12:33 AM

I have a xerox of that old article about the prototype 12-perf 35mm camera somewhere in my pile of papers. It was a cool idea, but required too much change in post infrastructure to support. Plus pulling 3X the amount of 35mm compared to 4-perf 35mm would make the costs of shooting 5-perf 65mm similar if not cheaper, and there's more post infrastructure for that format. Of course, 12-perf 35mm is a bigger negative than 5-perf 65mm:

12-perf 35mm: 56.01 x 24.92mm (my guess)
5-perf 65mm: 52.48 x 23.01mm

It's actually a resurrection of an idea attempted once before. Fred Waller, the inventor of Cinerama (which was made up of three 6-perf 35mm frames) tried to build a single 12-perf 35mm horizontal movement with a curved gate to replace the three-film Cinerama camera, but never quite finished the project before he died.

I think it would have been cool for some modern, quiet sync-sound 8-perf 35mm (VistaVision) cameras to be built in the style of an Arricam or Panaflex, a true "super" 35mm format. But in this day and age, I don't see a chance of that happening.
  • 0

#8 John Sprung

John Sprung
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4635 posts
  • Other

Posted 27 December 2007 - 01:18 PM

I think it would have been cool for some modern, quiet sync-sound 8-perf 35mm (VistaVision) cameras to be built in the style of an Arricam or Panaflex, a true "super" 35mm format. But in this day and age, I don't see a chance of that happening.

I remember seeing an 8 perf side pull camera at Showbiz Expo at around that same time, 10-12 years ago. It used a coaxial magazine, like an Arri 35 BL on its side.





-- J.S.
  • 0

#9 Nate Opgenorth

Nate Opgenorth
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 41 posts
  • Camera Operator
  • Syracuse, NY

Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:46 AM

I have a xerox of that old article about the prototype 12-perf 35mm camera somewhere in my pile of papers. It was a cool idea, but required too much change in post infrastructure to support. Plus pulling 3X the amount of 35mm compared to 4-perf 35mm would make the costs of shooting 5-perf 65mm similar if not cheaper, and there's more post infrastructure for that format. Of course, 12-perf 35mm is a bigger negative than 5-perf 65mm:

12-perf 35mm: 56.01 x 24.92mm (my guess)
5-perf 65mm: 52.48 x 23.01mm

It's actually a resurrection of an idea attempted once before. Fred Waller, the inventor of Cinerama (which was made up of three 6-perf 35mm frames) tried to build a single 12-perf 35mm horizontal movement with a curved gate to replace the three-film Cinerama camera, but never quite finished the project before he died.

I think it would have been cool for some modern, quiet sync-sound 8-perf 35mm (VistaVision) cameras to be built in the style of an Arricam or Panaflex, a true "super" 35mm format. But in this day and age, I don't see a chance of that happening.

Hey David do you happen to still have that Xerox? If you do would you be willing to share it? Would appreciate it allot. I sort of have a fascination in this area and was going over all the unique formats I find interesting/love (i.e.: VistaVision, 35mm 2-perf, various large formats), I randomly thought of the idea of 12-perf 35mm! Well as Google revealed my mind did not invent the thought and it sure didn't get past the geniuses on here! I mostly lurk and post around when I can here, but I did happen to read allot of Paul Bruening's stuff and its a damn shame he's passed on. I always feel a little bad reviving an old thread when someone as unique as Mr. Bruening is no longer with us. Perhaps I'm getting nostalgic about film before it goes :/ Oh well...I can only dream of a digital sensor in the 48x20 range with DR similar to RED's new Dragon sensor now...Who knows maybe Ill invent one and start a line of sensors named after the unique film pioneers that thought of similar ideas years before.

Edited by Nate Opgenorth, 11 December 2012 - 04:51 AM.

  • 0


Paralinx LLC

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Abel Cine

Opal

Glidecam

FJS International, LLC

Willys Widgets

Rig Wheels Passport

Aerial Filmworks

CineLab

Wooden Camera

CineTape

rebotnix Technologies

Tai Audio

The Slider

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Metropolis Post

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Visual Products

Ritter Battery

Technodolly

FJS International, LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Ritter Battery

rebotnix Technologies

Tai Audio

Abel Cine

Opal

Paralinx LLC

Technodolly

Glidecam

CineLab

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineTape

Willys Widgets

Wooden Camera

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

The Slider

Aerial Filmworks

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Visual Products

Metropolis Post