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Genesis vs. RED


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#1 Landon D. Parks

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 09:35 AM

OK, this point is not meant to bash either Camera. I was just wondering if anyone here knew what the difference was between the Genesis and the RED One? Both seem to have a lot of the same specs: 12 Mega pixel CCD that are S35 sized, Variable Frame Rates (1-50 for Genesis, 1-60 for RED), Full bandwidth output to record Uncompressed to an external device as well as many other similarity's.

Just looking at the specs, I can't really see what would be the huge difference between the Rental-only (and very expensive even to rent) Genesis and the RED, which can be properly outfit for around $35,000 with accessories, digital mags, etc. I do know that specs aren't the best way to tell what the actual image from the camera looks like, But was wondering if anyone else had an opinion on this?

Thanks,
Landon

by the way, MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

Edited by Landon D. Parks, 25 December 2007 - 09:36 AM.

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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 11:46 AM

The main difference is that the Genesis sensor does not have a Bayer pattern, but simpler RGB stripe pattern designed for a simple conversion to 1920 x 1080 HD 4:4:4 RGB for recording to HDCAM-SR. It was one normal row of photosites filtered for each color and one row ND'd to capture bright information per color, so if a normal HD frame is 2MP total, you get 4MP per color on this sensor, three colors -- hence a 12MP sensor --- but it all gets converted to 1920 x 1080 RGB.

The RED sensor is a Bayer pattern designed to allow a complex reconstruction of the missing color information. You have two green filtered photosites and one red and one blue, so you have to creatively calculate what the color value really was in that quadrant. This is why they say that a 4K Bayer pattern can only really capture 2/3's of 4K resolution, i.e. more like 3K, once it gets converted to RGB. But basically the de-Bayering converts the pattern to RGB at the same size image, i.e. 4K "RAW" Bayer files become 4K RGB files.

So that's the main difference -- the Genesis is an HD camera (nearly 2K) and the RED camera is a 4K RAW camera (effectively around 3K). In terms of actual difference in resolution, the MTF captured versus any aliasing artifacts, you'd have to shoot your own tests. Personally, the safe thing for now is to just say that either camera will generate theatrical quality images.

And of course, the RED is much cheaper all-around (except perhaps finishing in 4K and out to 35mm versus an HD finish for the Genesis footage.)

The simpler RGB striped system used by the Genesis is not necessarily artifact-free compared to the complicated Bayer pattern -- one characteristic of the Genesis is a tendency for bright lights at night to have a vertical flare.
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#3 Walter Graff

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 11:49 AM

The main difference is that the Genesis sensor does not have a Bayer pattern, but simpler RGB stripe pattern designed for a simple conversion to 1920 x 1080 HD 4:4:4 RGB for recording to HDCAM-SR. It was one normal row of photosites filtered for each color and one row ND'd to capture bright information per color, so if a normal HD frame is 2MP total, you get 4MP per color on this sensor, three colors -- hence a 12MP sensor --- but it all gets converted to 1920 x 1080 RGB.

The RED sensor is a Bayer pattern designed to allow a complex reconstruction of the missing color information. You have two green filtered photosites and one red and one blue, so you have to creatively calculate what the color value really was in that quadrant. This is why they say that a 4K Bayer pattern can only really capture 2/3's of 4K resolution, i.e. more like 3K, once it gets converted to RGB. But basically the de-Bayering converts the pattern to RGB at the same size image, i.e. 4K "RAW" Bayer files become 4K RGB files.

So that's the main difference -- the Genesis is an HD camera (nearly 2K) and the RED camera is a 4K RAW camera (effectively around 3K). In terms of actual difference in resolution, the MTF captured versus any aliasing artifacts, you'd have to shoot your own tests. Personally, the safe thing for now is to just say that either camera will generate theatrical quality images.

And of course, the RED is much cheaper all-around (except perhaps finishing in 4K and out to 35mm versus an HD finish for the Genesis footage.)

The simpler RGB striped system used by the Genesis is not necessarily artifact-free compared to the complicated Bayer pattern -- one characteristic of the Genesis is a tendency for bright lights at night to have a vertical flare.


Solid response David! :)
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#4 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 11:56 AM

I'll add that of course once you convert the 4K RAW files from the RED, you don't necessarily have to finish the post in 4K RGB, you could downrez to 2K RGB or 1080P HD and finish the movie that way.

Ignoring the cost for a moment, the main advantage to the Genesis and F23 is that there is an established HD post system in the major production centers. The workflow for the RED is newer and there are so many options that you'd have to think about it and plan it out, depending on how far you wanted to take the project in the chain yourself before involving a post house. Most people, as with a professional HD project, would probably take it as far as generating a final edit list and then take it to a post house for conforming and color-correction, or do the conforming themselves and do the final color-correction at a post house.
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#5 Stephen Williams

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 12:09 PM

Hi Landon,

The Genesis is a PV lens mount only. Whilst the Red has a PL mount as standard, it would be quite possible to make a PV mount for around a $1000.

Stephen
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#6 Walter Graff

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Posted 25 December 2007 - 12:12 PM

Hi Landon,

The Genesis is a PV lens mount only. Whilst the Red has a PL mount as standard, it would be quite possible to make a PV mount for around a $1000.

Stephen



Or sand off the ends of the flanges ever so slightly so that PV fits on the PL. :)
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#7 John Sprung

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 03:44 PM

Full bandwidth output to record Uncompressed to an external device as well as many other similarity's.

Does Red really give you an uncompressed raw output? I thought it put everything through wavelet compression, called RedCode.

Another difference is that Red uses a rolling shutter, so the top of the frame is exposed at a little different time than the bottom. This shows up on very brief strobe flashes.




-- J.S.
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 26 December 2007 - 04:15 PM

Does Red really give you an uncompressed raw output? I thought it put everything through wavelet compression, called RedCode.

-- J.S.


Hi John,

It's a $4500 extra, apparently as yet no camera has one.

Stephen
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