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HVX200 to film. pls. advise


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#1 Bassem Fayad

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 08:04 AM

Hey all .

I am a director/DOP working on an independent production using the HVX200 PAL and transferring to 35mm film.

I am new in this digital to film process and would like to ask for some tips.

first of all, we will have to choose between 1080i/25p and 720p/25p. all the research we've done left us more confused. my opinion is to go for the 720p though my director disagrees. so , any tips regarding this issue ?


2nd,
knowing the limits of the HVX200 I will opt for the following settings:

- lower the detail and vertical detail level to the max in order to avoid video harsh look.
- set the pedestal level to almost +7 trying to gain a stop in the low zones. I understand that noise level will increase dramatically but will be counting on D.I to overcome that .
- chroma level of +2
- cinelike Matrix
- knee , MID
- Gamma HD NORM
- and the vertical detail freq. set to thin !

will count on a Zebra setting of 80% to determine exposure knowing that the camera sensitivity is around 400 ASA . will avoid over exposures of more than one stop, and underexposures of minus three stops .

Am I thinking right ? any help is appreciated .

thank you in advance ,
Peace
Bassem Fayad
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#2 Kenn Christenson

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 11:51 AM

Hey all .

I am a director/DOP working on an independent production using the HVX200 PAL and transferring to 35mm film.

I am new in this digital to film process and would like to ask for some tips.

first of all, we will have to choose between 1080i/25p and 720p/25p. all the research we've done left us more confused. my opinion is to go for the 720p though my director disagrees. so , any tips regarding this issue ?


2nd,
knowing the limits of the HVX200 I will opt for the following settings:

- lower the detail and vertical detail level to the max in order to avoid video harsh look.
- set the pedestal level to almost +7 trying to gain a stop in the low zones. I understand that noise level will increase dramatically but will be counting on D.I to overcome that .
- chroma level of +2
- cinelike Matrix
- knee , MID
- Gamma HD NORM
- and the vertical detail freq. set to thin !

will count on a Zebra setting of 80% to determine exposure knowing that the camera sensitivity is around 400 ASA . will avoid over exposures of more than one stop, and underexposures of minus three stops .

Am I thinking right ? any help is appreciated .

thank you in advance ,
Peace
Bassem Fayad


I would definitely stick with 1080i/25P - You'll be gaining about 20% more resolution that way - a must for film out. As for the other settings, the only way to be truly sure is to do an initial film out - testing the various parameters. Just my opinion, but I think turning the detail enhancement all the way off may make your image too soft - again, if film out is your goal, better to test and be sure.
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#3 John Sprung

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 01:34 PM

With 720p, each frame consists of 720 lines, scanned from the same place in the frame. With 1080i, you get 540 lines scanned from the odd numbered positions down the screen, 1,3,5, etc, followed by another 540 lines scanned from the even positions in between, 2,4,6, etc. To prevent small area flicker in interlace, the picture has to be softened just a little. So, you get just very slightly less resolution with interlace. 1080i is about equivalent to 700p, not 720p. Progressive is much easier to deal with in any kind of post processes, effects, etc.




-- J.S.
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#4 Kenn Christenson

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 02:12 PM

With 720p, each frame consists of 720 lines, scanned from the same place in the frame. With 1080i, you get 540 lines scanned from the odd numbered positions down the screen, 1,3,5, etc, followed by another 540 lines scanned from the even positions in between, 2,4,6, etc. To prevent small area flicker in interlace, the picture has to be softened just a little. So, you get just very slightly less resolution with interlace. 1080i is about equivalent to 700p, not 720p. Progressive is much easier to deal with in any kind of post processes, effects, etc.




-- J.S.


Actually... The HVX scans the CCDs progressively, to begin with. The camera then makes the interlaced images from the progressive scan. If you are shooting 1080i/24P/A for instance, you are going to get true 24 frame progressive images - once you've done reverse pulldown in the editing or compositing application of your choice (no "softening" going on, here.) And... those progressive images contain 20% more resolution than images shot 720P. Check DVXUser.com for further info on the HVX.

Edited by Kenn Christeson, 27 December 2007 - 02:13 PM.

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#5 Bill Totolo

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 02:41 PM

- and the vertical detail freq. set to thin !

will count on a Zebra setting of 80% to determine exposure knowing that the camera sensitivity is around 400 ASA . will avoid over exposures of more than one stop, and underexposures of minus three stops .



Thin vs. thick is only applicable when shooting std def modes. Regardless of what menu item is selected the camera is always on "thin" in high def (720 or 1080).

400asa? That sounds a little optimistic to me so make sure to take some field measurements before you make that assumption.

My main concern would be detail settings and black levels. Where are you going for the film out?
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#6 Bassem Fayad

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 05:30 PM

Thank you all for your replies.
though it seems we will have to take this discussion further concerning the 1080i or 720p.
what i do not get is the fact that the camera shoots progressive images in an interlace mode !!!!
does that mean that we will get an image of 540 lines at the end (or an image of 1080 doubling the lines of one trim) if that's true it does not indicate more information in the image , does it ?

as for the settings i do agree that the best way is to transfer some test footage, though i was counting on some previous experiences concerning the black levels and noise....
i will let you know about our test results. (actually i am now thinking about testing two different settings)

as for the labs, we will have to choose between "SwissEffect" in Switzerland and "Micros" in France. (giving us good rate). anyone heard about them ? I have seen a Lebanese feature film shot with the DVX100 and transferred to 35. the French DOP used a pedestal of +7 and the result with the grain issue was amazing . apparently most of the noise was delt with at the lab. counting on that i think. will have to wait for our test.

I would love to get some more posts concerning the 1080i/25p and 720p/25p ....

thanks again ,
loving your support
Peace
Bassem
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#7 Kenn Christenson

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Posted 27 December 2007 - 07:00 PM

Thank you all for your replies.
though it seems we will have to take this discussion further concerning the 1080i or 720p.
what i do not get is the fact that the camera shoots progressive images in an interlace mode !!!!
does that mean that we will get an image of 540 lines at the end (or an image of 1080 doubling the lines of one trim) if that's true it does not indicate more information in the image , does it ?

as for the settings i do agree that the best way is to transfer some test footage, though i was counting on some previous experiences concerning the black levels and noise....
i will let you know about our test results. (actually i am now thinking about testing two different settings)

as for the labs, we will have to choose between "SwissEffect" in Switzerland and "Micros" in France. (giving us good rate). anyone heard about them ? I have seen a Lebanese feature film shot with the DVX100 and transferred to 35. the French DOP used a pedestal of +7 and the result with the grain issue was amazing . apparently most of the noise was delt with at the lab. counting on that i think. will have to wait for our test.

I would love to get some more posts concerning the 1080i/25p and 720p/25p ....

thanks again ,
loving your support
Peace
Bassem


The Camera DOES NOT shoot progressive images in interlaced mode. (I would disregard the person who said that it does.) The images ARE PROGRESSIVE (the CCDs are PROGRESSIVE scan CCDs.) In 24P or 24P/A they are just added to an interlaced stream with either 3:2 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown. The pulldown can be removed in editing and compositing software.
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#8 Michelob Fedusenko

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 03:43 AM

Why not just shoot in 24p 720 P/N and you won't have any pulldown and get roughly twice the footage on one card with no degradation.
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#9 Kenn Christenson

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 10:54 AM

Why not just shoot in 24p 720 P/N and you won't have any pulldown and get roughly twice the footage on one card with no degradation.


Again - there NO DEGRADATION to the progressive frames encoded in the 1080i stream. If you're going to do a film out, you want the sharpest image you can get and that is by shooting in 1080 24P/A PERIOD!
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#10 John Sprung

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 01:11 PM

Again - there NO DEGRADATION to the progressive frames encoded in the 1080i stream. If you're going to do a film out, you want the sharpest image you can get and that is by shooting in 1080 24P/A PERIOD!

If it's 1080i, then it's softened to not flicker on an interlaced display, by a factor usually about 0.65. If it's 1080pSf, then it's not softened at all, the full resolution progressive image is merely stored as if it were interlaced. That's the critical distinction.

1080i is a little worse than 720p. 1080pSf is way better than 720p, and looks exactly the same as plain 1080p. Segmented frame is a technique that made it practical to record 1080p images using the existing tape transports of ten years ago. It's in such common use that people often just say 1080p even when it may at times exist in the "segmented" form.

The real important thing here is to never say 1080i when it's not resolution limited for interlaced display.





-- J.S.
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#11 Kenn Christenson

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 01:40 PM

If it's 1080i, then it's softened to not flicker on an interlaced display, by a factor usually about 0.65. If it's 1080pSf, then it's not softened at all, the full resolution progressive image is merely stored as if it were interlaced. That's the critical distinction.

1080i is a little worse than 720p. 1080pSf is way better than 720p, and looks exactly the same as plain 1080p. Segmented frame is a technique that made it practical to record 1080p images using the existing tape transports of ten years ago. It's in such common use that people often just say 1080p even when it may at times exist in the "segmented" form.

The real important thing here is to never say 1080i when it's not resolution limited for interlaced display.





-- J.S.

If you're going to be TECHNICALLY correct it IS 1080i - even if you're shooting 108024P/A - the video will still be interlaced and it IS important to know this if you're going to extract the progressive frames form the interlaced video stream. And since the original thread was about a film out, shooting 1080/60i is probably the last format you'd want to shoot in - hence no mention of it in any of my posts.
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#12 John Sprung

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 02:46 PM

If you're going to be TECHNICALLY correct it IS 1080i -

No, wrong. And if you ever do business with a professional post production facility, that misuse of the term 1080i will cause confusion and probably cost you money.





-- J.S.
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#13 Kenn Christenson

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 04:17 PM

No, wrong. And if you ever do business with a professional post production facility, that misuse of the term 1080i will cause confusion and probably cost you money.





-- J.S.

If I went to a post house and they didn't understand what is meant by "1080i 24P/A" or "1080i 25P" (which was mentioned in the beginning of this thread, I'd seriously look for another house. ;)

I've done a lot of post work with footage from the HVX and, now the HPX, and I have to tell you, 1080i is used all the time in the settings of the software I use - even when I'm editing progressively acquired footage. The software needs to know if the footage is interlaced so it can remove the pulldown properly.

Edited by Kenn Christeson, 28 December 2007 - 04:17 PM.

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#14 Bassem Fayad

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 08:26 AM

If I went to a post house and they didn't understand what is meant by "1080i 24P/A" or "1080i 25P" (which was mentioned in the beginning of this thread, I'd seriously look for another house. ;)

I've done a lot of post work with footage from the HVX and, now the HPX, and I have to tell you, 1080i is used all the time in the settings of the software I use - even when I'm editing progressively acquired footage. The software needs to know if the footage is interlaced so it can remove the pulldown properly.



Could you please explain how the removal of the pull down exactly happens. (editing on final cut pro).
A friend claims that this process will cause a loss of resolution and you'll find yourself with a resolution equivalent to 700p. !!!
so how does the removal of the pull down work ?
and what if i need to shoot some slow motion shots, (using the 720p), will it be possible to edit with 1080 and 720 ? will the difference be that clear ?

thanks for all .
Peace
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#15 Bassem Fayad

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 08:27 AM

If I went to a post house and they didn't understand what is meant by "1080i 24P/A" or "1080i 25P" (which was mentioned in the beginning of this thread, I'd seriously look for another house. ;)

I've done a lot of post work with footage from the HVX and, now the HPX, and I have to tell you, 1080i is used all the time in the settings of the software I use - even when I'm editing progressively acquired footage. The software needs to know if the footage is interlaced so it can remove the pulldown properly.



Could you please explain how the removal of the pull down exactly happens. (editing on final cut pro).
A friend claims that this process will cause a loss of resolution and you'll find yourself with a resolution equivalent to 700p. !!!
so how does the removal of the pull down work ?
and what if i need to shoot some slow motion shots, (using the 720p), will it be possible to edit with 1080 and 720 ? will the difference be that clear ?

thanks for all .
Peace
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#16 Kenn Christenson

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 03:47 PM

Could you please explain how the removal of the pull down exactly happens. (editing on final cut pro).
A friend claims that this process will cause a loss of resolution and you'll find yourself with a resolution equivalent to 700p. !!!
so how does the removal of the pull down work ?
and what if i need to shoot some slow motion shots, (using the 720p), will it be possible to edit with 1080 and 720 ? will the difference be that clear ?

thanks for all .
Peace


There is probably more misinformation about the HVX than probably any other camera. I'm guessing your friend has never really shot or edited anything from the HVX?

Final Cut can recognize the flagged progressive frames in the advanced pulldown 1080i stream, created by the HVX - doing, essentially, a reverse pulldown and creating your progressive footage in 23.976 (in my case.) There is NO LOSS of resolution in the reverse pulldown process.

I think your best bet is to rent or borrow an HVX to shoot and edit a little test and see for yourself if there is any loss in resolution.

I have mixed 720P footage with 1080. There is a subtle difference between the two (as one would expect)- at least in the resolution I am working with the footage. Again, you really need to test these things. Everything you'll hear on these forums is subjective - what works for one person might be unacceptable to another.
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#17 John Sprung

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 01:31 AM

If I went to a post house and they didn't understand what is meant by "1080i 24P/A" or "1080i 25P" (which was mentioned in the beginning of this thread, I'd seriously look for another house. ;)

No, it is you who clearly don't understand the meaning of the terms. "1080i 24P/A" is an inherent contradiction. So is "1080i 25P".

What you mean is "1080p24/Sf" or "1080p25/Sf". Having both "i" and "p" in the same specification is the contradiction. Usually we don't even bother with the "/Sf" part, and write "1080p24" or "1080p25" on purchase orders. Those are the terms I use in the Standard Requirements documents that I issue to our Associate Producers and DP's. (1080i is only used for network delivery dubs.)

Ordinarily I wouldn't stomp so hard on this kind of misinformation, but there are a lot of students and beginners who read this board. If anybody made that mistake on their first job here, certainly their competence would be widely questioned.

I've been in this business for 34 years, and doing post production technology on major network prime time episodic TV for the last 22 years. I was in the room about 12 years ago when Larry Thorpe from Sony proposed and explained the segmented frame idea to the chief engineers of most of the big post houses here in Hollywood.



-- J.S.
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#18 Bassem Fayad

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 09:02 AM

No, it is you who clearly don't understand the meaning of the terms. "1080i 24P/A" is an inherent contradiction. So is "1080i 25P".

What you mean is "1080p24/Sf" or "1080p25/Sf". Having both "i" and "p" in the same specification is the contradiction. Usually we don't even bother with the "/Sf" part, and write "1080p24" or "1080p25" on purchase orders. Those are the terms I use in the Standard Requirements documents that I issue to our Associate Producers and DP's. (1080i is only used for network delivery dubs.)

Ordinarily I wouldn't stomp so hard on this kind of misinformation, but there are a lot of students and beginners who read this board. If anybody made that mistake on their first job here, certainly their competence would be widely questioned.

I've been in this business for 34 years, and doing post production technology on major network prime time episodic TV for the last 22 years. I was in the room about 12 years ago when Larry Thorpe from Sony proposed and explained the segmented frame idea to the chief engineers of most of the big post houses here in Hollywood.



-- J.S.



So when Panasonic say 1080i/25P they are referring to 1080p25/Sf ?
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#19 John Sprung

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 02:46 PM

So when Panasonic say 1080i/25P they are referring to 1080p25/Sf ?

It sure sounds like that's what they mean. To find out for sure, I'd shoot a Marconi chart or something like that, and see where the resolution dies out.

Making a mistake between segmented and true progressive usually isn't such a disaster. You see it come up wrong on the screen, and just go back and switch to the other mode. But if something is accidentally resolution limited for interlaced display, there's no way to get back the lost resolution without going back to the step in the process at which it was lost. If that step was principal photography, it's a real big expensive problem. That's why we work 1080p/24 all the way, and only downconvert to interlace for delivery dubs. We have the full progressive resolution in the archive for the future.

BTW, I may have had the capitalization wrong, I think now that Sony called it "sF" not "Sf". Anyhow, we don't generally write it, and just use "1080p25". The facilities vendors figure it out, no problem. Panasonic may be using "/A" rather than "sF" because that was a term coined by Sony.




-- J.S.
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#20 Michael Nash

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 03:11 PM

Panasonic may be using "/A" rather than "sF" because that was a term coined by Sony.


Panasonic's 24P"A" ("Advance") is something different. It's a different pulldown cadence (2:3:3:2) that allows for NLE's to easily extract a 24P pattern from 60i recording. AFAIK Sony has no equivalent.

https://eww.pavc.pan...100/24p24pa.htm
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