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lithium-ion battery pack


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#1 Stephen Williams

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 12:43 PM

Hi All,

There is a reason why the quantity of lithium batteries on an aircraft is limited, I know understand why they are in the same class as dynamite.

http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=WeWq6rWzChw

Stephen
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#2 Valerio Sacchetto

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 01:09 PM

Impressive. A must see for all the teenagers that lounge on their bed chatting on their laptop :rolleyes:
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#3 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 01:16 PM

Does an uncharged lithium ion battery pose same danger, less danger, or no danger?

Are we allowed to ship the tiny lithium batteries that go with mini-dv cameras? If so, uncharged or it does not matter?
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#4 Stephen Williams

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 01:29 PM

Does an uncharged lithium ion battery pose same danger, less danger, or no danger?

Are we allowed to ship the tiny lithium batteries that go with mini-dv cameras? If so, uncharged or it does not matter?


Hi,

I don't think the state of charge has any bearing of the danger.

My understanding is no.

Stephen
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#5 Stephen Williams

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 01:39 PM

Any fire in an aircraft is a memorable experience. There are two aspects
of a lithium metal fire that make such a fire extremely hazardous on an aircraft. The first is that lithium burns at a very high
temperature, and the normal aircraft fire suppression systems are ineffective against a lithium fire.

This is from the FAA:

?A relatively small fire source is sufficient to start a primary lithium
battery fire. The outer plastic coating easily melts and fuses adjacent
batteries together and then ignites, contributing to the fire intensity.
This helps raise the battery temperature to the self-ignition
temperature of lithium. Once the lithium in a single battery begins to
burn, it releases enough energy to ignite adjacent batteries. This
propagation continues until all batteries have been consumed.

?Halon 1301, the fire suppression agent installed in transport category
aircraft, is ineffective in suppressing or extinguishing a primary
lithium battery fire. Halon 1301 appears to chemically interact with the
burning lithium and electrolyte, causing a color change in the molten
lithium sparks, turning them a deep red instead of the normal white.
This chemical interaction has no effect on battery fire duration or
intensity.

?The air temperature in a cargo compartment that has had a fire
suppressed by Halon 1301 can still be above the autoignition temperature
of lithium. Because of this, batteries that were not involved in the
initial fire can still ignite and propagate.

?The ignition of a primary lithium battery releases burning electrolyte
and a molten lithium spray. The cargo liner material may be vulnerable
to perforation by molten lithium, depending on its thickness. This can
allow the Halon 1301 fire suppressant agent to leak out of the
compartment, reducing the concentration within the cargo compartment and
the effectiveness of the agent. Holes in the cargo liner may also allow
flames to spread outside the compartment.

?The ignition of primary lithium batteries releases a pressure pulse
that can raise the air pressure within the cargo compartment. The
ignition of only a few batteries was sufficient to increase the air
pressure by more than 1 psi in an airtight 10-meter-cubed pressure
vessel. Cargo compartments are only designed to withstand approximately
a 1-psi pressure differential. The ignition of a bulk-packed lithium
battery shipment may compromise the integrity of the compartment by
activating the pressure relief panels. This has the same effect as
perforations in the cargo liner, allowing the Halon 1301 fire
suppressant to leak out, reducing its effectiveness.?

Full text:

http://www.icao.int/...6/WPs/WP.36.pdf
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#6 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 02:11 PM

If I am recalling this correctly a lithium ion battery must weigh less than 2 pounds to be brought onboard an airplane.

So the tiny batteries on a mini-dv camcorder, are they considered acceptable to ship via fed-ex, onboard a plane, in the baggage area?

I'm curious if the specs are different for going onboard an airplane with a lithium ion battery versus what one puts in baggage. It seems really dangerous to put a lap top in baggage since they are kind of fragile to begin with, could get damaged, ignite and nobody would be aware???

Is it "safer" to put a laptop where it can be seen (on board) versus in baggage where if it was damaged and acted up nobody would really know about it?
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#7 Michael Nash

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 01:20 PM

If I am recalling this correctly a lithium ion battery must weigh less than 2 pounds to be brought onboard an airplane.

So the tiny batteries on a mini-dv camcorder, are they considered acceptable to ship via fed-ex, onboard a plane, in the baggage area?

I'm curious if the specs are different for going onboard an airplane with a lithium ion battery versus what one puts in baggage. It seems really dangerous to put a lap top in baggage since they are kind of fragile to begin with, could get damaged, ignite and nobody would be aware???

Is it "safer" to put a laptop where it can be seen (on board) versus in baggage where if it was damaged and acted up nobody would really know about it?



http://www.cinematog...n...c=28082&hl=
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 05:04 PM

Hi All,

Remember to count the Lithium-ion batteries in your cell phone, laptop & still camera before calculating how many (if any) additional batteries you can take on board.

Stephen
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#9 Michael Nash

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 10:02 PM

Hi All,

Remember to count the Lithium-ion batteries in your cell phone, laptop & still camera before calculating how many (if any) additional batteries you can take on board.

Stephen


The rules seem to say that "installed" batteries in such devices are acceptable; it's the number/mass of spare batteries they place a limit on.
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#10 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 01:03 PM

What about when shipping via a courier such as Fed-Ex?

I'm supposed to ship a compact DV camcorder to someone. At the moment neither battery is on the camera.
The batteries are very tiny, they easily fit in the palm of a hand.

Do I have to avoid shredded paper as packing material and instead use something non-flammable? What would be considered non-flammable?
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#11 Michael Nash

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 04:14 PM

Tim included some links in the post I quoted.
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#12 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 04:51 PM

Paper or styrofoam pellets, is one less flammable than the other?

There appears to be conflicting data over whether the batteries should be left mounted to the camera or not.
One place says keep the batteries in baggies or it's original packaging, and another sources says the batteries should be attached to an actual piece of equipment.
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#13 Doug Okamoto

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 07:53 PM

The limits apply to both spare and installed batteries. Read here: http://safetravel.do..._batteries.html for more information.

Basically you can bring any installed battery (up to 8 grams of lithium content) as a carry on (within the airline limits) or in checked baggage (as long as the device is locked off). You are limited to 2 spare batteries up to 25 grams of lithium content total.

For a lithium metal battery the limit is 2 grams (per battery) and that is pertaining to both spare and installed. I think the most common application now a days are watch batteries and pacemakers but some toys use them as well in permanent installations.

Note when the TSA is refering to lithium batteries, they are talking about lithium-ion batteries. When they are refering to lithium metal batteries, they are talking about the old style lithium batteries where the lithium metal itself is the anode. Graphite is usually used commercially now and the lithium ions are inserted into that.

I hope this clears things up, I had to work my brain around this one to finally figure it out.
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#14 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 09:04 PM

Passing the buck.

Basically, if you declare dangerous goods, FedEx has NONE of the merchandise one would need to ship the item.
You need a special container that FedEx does not sell, warning stickers which FedEx does not have, and a special form to fill out that one downloads from the internet, because FedEx does not stock them. Then you pay a 35 dollar additional charge.

I would suggest that the airlines and the delivery companies are possibly passing the buck. Why not just install
a small vaccuum steel box in the cargo hold with a temperature indicator. Ok, that will cost money. But so what, how about we put fellow country people back to work rather than just pass the cost on to the end user.
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#15 Stephen Williams

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Posted 02 January 2008 - 05:21 PM

Hi All,

Bear in mind professional equipment is not covered by the wording used in sub-section 2.3 of the IATA Dangerous Goods Regulations. Table 2.3.A expressly refers to "Consumer Electronic Devices" and not to professional equipment.

Airlines typically permit professional equipment under the scope of these regulations to a certain degree, however, this is actually good will on the side of the airlines.

Stephen
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