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35 post workflow


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#1 Chris Walters

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 12:37 AM

I've only released to digital and i'm trying to understand the whole workflow. I've been reading on the printer lights and timed dailies and everything done for a workprint. Do you time your workprint/dailies and then telecine that to edit off of or just the original negative. I know that the dailies are positive prints and thought telecine was with the negative. Correct me if i am wrong here. Seems like a waste to do a internegative at this point, but if thats the process so be it.

Do you actually do anything with the dailies or work print it self if you are editing digitally but negative cutting or are they just for checking your previous days work? More of a luxury if you have the funds. Obviously I'm a student and i'm trying to get a handle on this for my senior films coming up. Thank you for any advice that follows.

Chris
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#2 Kevin Zanit

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 01:15 AM

Assuming you are shooting with a negative cut and not a DI in mind:

Your orig. camera neg. is telecined for dallies to usually some lower SD format for editorial. If you have the money you get HD dallies (or even film printed dailies though this is very rare now).

Editorial finishes their work and turns over an EDL they generated. The negative cutter then conforms your original negative based on the EDL, it then goes for color correction.

You color correct and typically strike your interpostive/ internegative from which your release prints are made.

This is a pretty simplified version that doesn't deal with audio, transitions or titles. I am sure someone will expand this, but also do a search on here is a lot of this stuff has been discussed in great detail.
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#3 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 02:50 AM

A bigger-budget movie might make both film dailies for screening, and a transfer to video off of the negative for offline editing. But for most of us, the reality is video dailies, usually done cheaply to standard def video. They don't spend a lot of money on these because the transfer will only be used for editing, not for the final video masters.

Later the negative is cut (conformed) to match the EDL from the offline (digital) editing. Then the negative is answer printed to determine the set of printer lights for every shot to create a color-corrected print.

Those printer lights are also used to make a color-corrected interpositive (I.P.) off of the negative, which can be used for a final high-quality (expensive) video transfer, usually to HD. The I.P. can also be used to make a dupe negative for making large numbers of release prints.

What I'm describing is the non-D.I. workflow for features shot on 35mm color negative.

A telecine can transfer either positive or negative film elements -- camera negative, I.P., I.N., prints, reversal originals, etc.
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#4 Chris Walters

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 10:47 AM

Thank you sirs. That did clear it up a lot for me. I figured film dailies were more of a luxury so I shouldn't expect them for me anytime soon. :-P Since both of you mentioned it what would be the workflow for a DI. I think I have the basic idea of scanning the negative at a high res or SD to edit depending on budget then EDL to laser it out to film. Is that the just of it?
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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 01:01 PM

Generally film needs to be transferred to 4:4:4 HD or 2K RGB data at minimum to maintain quality for transfer to 35mm for large screen projection. Considering the high costs of transferring all your camera rolls at this level or quality & resolution, most people transfer to low-cost SD, cut the movie, generate an EDL, and then re-transfer selects off of the camera rolls at high resolution and then conform them to match the EDL.

Another possibility is to transfer everything to 4:4:4 HD on HDCAM-SR and use that transfer to create video dailies and for the final film-out work, again, conforming to match the offline EDL.

Ordinary transfers to SD are not considered high-quality enough for a transfer back to film, not without making the film look worse than it really does.

D.I.'s are very expensive; finishing traditionally using photochemical methods is actually cheaper.
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#6 Chris Walters

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 03:18 PM

Thanks again David. I'm sorry I missed you when you came to Cal State Northridge. I was in that cinematography class you came with Mr. Dibie. I was on another shoot with Nancy Schrieber. I had a whole lot of questions I guess I'll have to spread out on this server lol :-P It was also a pleasure meeting you at Panafest in the theater for the genesis/film comparison. Hope to meet you again soon.
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#7 John Sprung

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Posted 04 January 2008 - 04:30 PM

If you have the money you get HD dallies (or even film printed dailies though this is very rare now).

What we've done at times is to print and project film not of all the dailies, but just of a few selects on the first day. This isn't used for post at all, it's just a check for the DP on the cameras and lenses. Usually just a few hundred feet, only one take of any setup.



-- J.S.
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#8 Richardson Leao

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 08:34 AM

Back to DI. Could I get some lab names in US that transfer the HD to 35mm? particularly, does colorlab do it? thanks!

What we've done at times is to print and project film not of all the dailies, but just of a few selects on the first day. This isn't used for post at all, it's just a check for the DP on the cameras and lenses. Usually just a few hundred feet, only one take of any setup.



-- J.S.


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#9 Miguel Bunster

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 10:53 PM

Hi,
I am going through this post process selection now.
Originally production looked at shooting RED but for some respectable reasons the director who is great (and his first film, big hollywood writer) decided RED or viper were not right for his film visually and production looked at shooting super16mm and then go DI. We are actually pushing things and trying to work out on 35mm not only for the extra quality but optically wise (perpspective, depth of field, angle of view etc) is a better choice for the film. We being talking with a couple bigger houses and a smaller one I workedwith before which I had a good experience for a HDSR 444 LOG post workflow from where we will get a lowcon master daily and from that pre timed dailies for the offline in HDVCpro quality and then get a final version in HDSR444 LOG and sub formats so they can go sell the film and if so then make a print.

Number been around in one place for 100,000 aprox for all the post DI and post sound included (no composer or music) and to the other end to all DI post workflow with out sound to 70,000. All based in 100,000 feet of film. Some are big post houses and other smallers but is the range we been looking at. Which is actually really good considering. Kodak is giving a killer deal and so Deluxe so things may come together and get 35mm.

One more thing we been looking at and are getting the numbers is going the optical way and from the final print get a low con print and from that make an HD transfer and so on for sales. This is cheaper to a certaini degree (well it is) because post house which do image and sound and are related to lbas give a good deal package at least in our range. The final tradition price will depend on the amoun of optical and etc but to a certain degree this is more marginal.

But the producers had a fair question: why if we are going 1.85 35mm dont we go optical? so looking into it more price wise.

As well wanted to ask any1 opinions in the followin because I wont be able to compare the tests but this is one thought:

1-shoot 1.85 and do HDSR 444 LOG workflow
or:
2- Shoot Super 1.85 and Do HDSR444 LOG workflow, curious if is it worth it the extra negative from looking at it, not from number wise.
Problem of doing this is that locks production into going DI but well this is decided before all takes place of course.

Where we are shooting there is only 1 camera that is 3 perf which was an orignal pln to go that route and do a DI but things look like a 4 perf show.

Any thoughts?
Thanks and best!
m
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