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frame rates - help needed


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#1 will wallace

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 06:12 PM

hi, im planning to begin filmmaking on super 8 very shortly. i intend to shoot my short film on 64t, telecine it to minidv format, edit it, synchronise dialogue and music recorded separately and ultimately, create a dvd.

ideally i would like to film at 18fps mainly because this would give me more time to film per cartridge, but i have been rather confused about the telecine process in this aspect.

telecine-ing 24fps footage would change the frame rate to 25fps, right? but to telecine the 18fps footage and create footage suitable for dvd the digital footages' frame rate will have to be quite different... will this mean the speed of digital product of 18fps super8 will be greatly different? because this will be a problem as i wish to over-dub some dialogue if possible.

im rather confused because i have been thinking about this and researching a great deal. if anyone can help me out i will really appreciate it.

if i am just wrong about this whole frame rate conversion malarky im sorry haha. but as far as i can see if the digital footage is 18fps, which i belive is possible via frame by frame telecine it wudnt be suitable for dvd...

help..?
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#2 Alessandro Malfatti

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 09:05 PM

Film is telecined at 24 fps in NTSC countries, and at 25 in PAL countries. Also in PAL countries 18fps films are usually transferred at 16.66 fps, but I don't know how that is in NTSC countries... perhaps 20 fps, which would make 60 images per second with a three blade shutter, and that works with 30 fps/60 Hz Video. If anyone could confirm this, about the rest I'm pretty sure.
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#3 Rick Palidwor

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 10:09 PM

Film is telecined at 24 fps in NTSC countries, and at 25 in PAL countries. Also in PAL countries 18fps films are usually transferred at 16.66 fps, but I don't know how that is in NTSC countries... perhaps 20 fps, which would make 60 images per second with a three blade shutter, and that works with 30 fps/60 Hz Video. If anyone could confirm this, about the rest I'm pretty sure.


Yes it would be transferred at 20fps in NTSC, an increase in speed of about 9%. For lots of footage the speed change is not noticeable (I shoot most of my stuff at 18 to get more running time and more light) but it is not recommended for sync sound shooting. I'd shoot 24 if I were you.

Rick
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#4 will wallace

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 06:17 AM

so.... how much faster/slower would 18fps footage be when put on digital?

you see my plan is to record some dialogue after i have the digital footage but if the footage speed has been changed a lot then the actors will have to do the dialogue really fast or slow and that wud be stupid, see
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#5 will wallace

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 08:44 AM

basically is it possible to go from 18fps footage to dvd without changing the speed significantly...
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#6 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 11:18 AM

If anyone could confirm this, about the rest I'm pretty sure.


Hi all (all the best for 2008 to you two, though belatedly only :rolleyes: ).

Please allow me to confirm all that as well!

-Michael


--

Will, I lack some knowledge about your production chain and what you want to achieve. Do you intend to do a home transfer, or on a telecine machine in a lab, or do you do a proper scanning?
Furthermore, you do realise that depending on the camera you use, you might avoid various problems like these (many labs are all too often not terribly keen on receiving S8 reversal for telecine, let alone at 18 fps which then needs to gets synchronised in NLE) plus achieve a shorter exposure time which might help to tighten or sharpen up the image of your film when shooting at 24 fps? Is the difference you achieve between 18 and 24 of 40 secs truly worth it?

(Having said that, I admit we once shot a 30 minutes short film with either 18 fps & 9 fps which also had to be projected at 6 fps for screenings (with a Bauer T 82 machine) to achieve a truly outworldly effect and percept)
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