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Rolling Shutter problems with Red.


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#1 Cesar Rubio

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 10:52 AM

I haven't read anything about this important issue in this forum, and I would like to know what everybody thinks about it.

Some in the Red forum are calling it a "deal-breaker" problem....

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#2 Gary McClurg

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 10:59 AM

I haven't read anything about this important issue in this forum, and I would like to know what everybody thinks about it.

Some in the Red forum are calling it a "deal-breaker" problem....

Cesar Rubio.


I thought that someone brought this up during the first footage from Peter Jackson... but again I thought that Red had claimed that the problem was fixed... other than that I don't know anything...
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#3 Cesar Rubio

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 11:26 AM

I thought that someone brought this up during the first footage from Peter Jackson... but again I thought that Red had claimed that the problem was fixed... other than that I don't know anything...


Jim Jannard has said that with Build 13 or 14 it will be a 10% improvement from previous "Build's".


He hasn't commented anything in this thread though:

http://www.reduser.n...read.php?t=7544


CR.

Edited by Cesar Rubio, 16 January 2008 - 11:29 AM.

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#4 Joakim Sandstrom

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 12:15 PM

It seems it will be fine for some people and for some not.

I would worry about

* Stereoscopic shooting, the two sensors being out of sync.

* Motion control work.

* 3D tracking ( boujou ).


I feel red is going for a much broader market ( for now ?) where some issues can be tolerated.

Not competing with for example f23.

Claudio Mirandas red vs f23 pointed out the stuff I was curios about. These small nuanses that no one else
pointed to, rolling shutter was one of them, there where some more,

Q: Shooting into light sources artifacts ( I think you can never have enough backlight )
A: Being adressed

Q: 4K does not look 4K.
A: Seems like 4.5K with OLPF softness is part of what gives that filmic red look. Red recommends adding electronic sharpness.

Q: Compression. 1:12 is way too much. Raw port?
A: They've scrapped the raw port due to lack of interest.

4.5K @ 60p uncompressed bayer, on my disc, this sounded futurustic, so ahead of everything else.
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#5 Cesar Rubio

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 12:44 PM

It seems it will be fine for some people and for some not.


Joakim:

Its difficult to face reality, especially when some are "fan-boys" of something.

Most people tend to "ignore" problems or wait for some "magical fix" to come later when they have committed a considerably amount of time and money into something.

CMOS technology has always had the "rolling shutter" read out of the sensor path. The Mysterium sensor even when has a faster read-out than the average CMOS, is not immune to this problem.

I think that the only option to Red at this time, in order to avoid a mass "stampede", is to offer a CCD "up-grade" sensor. But it will increase the price considerably, and I don't know if those "loyal" customers will be so loyal after hearing that their "dream" camera is going to be more expensive.

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#6 Joakim Sandstrom

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 01:09 PM

I think that the only option to Red at this time, in order to avoid a mass "stampede", is to offer a CCD "up-grade" sensor. But it will increase the price considerably, and I don't know if those "loyal" customers will be so loyal after hearing that their "dream" camera is going to be more expensive.


Well look at the red forum. People seem overly happy with their images. And the camera produces beautiful results.

I feel there are two camps:

A- People who use the images, in-camera, just like the stuff we see from it today.

B- People who want to capture the most un-compromised quality possible. Think 2001 for example. If I where kubrick I would not want to shoot my elaborate sets, knowing it got 1:12 compression on capture. This fact alone puts the red camera aside from a dual link sdi f23 type of (expensive) workflow

I hate this, I want a 4.5K 2/3 ccd 60p uncompressed now! NAB 2008 ! ? D:

Thanks
Joakim Sandstrom

Edited by Joakim Sandstrom, 16 January 2008 - 01:11 PM.

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#7 Cesar Rubio

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 01:31 PM

I hate this, I want a 4.5K 2/3 ccd 60p uncompressed now! NAB 2008 ! ? D:

Thanks
Joakim Sandstrom


Joakim:

4.5K resolution in a 2/3 sensor?

Probably it can be done but at the expense of light sensitivity and dynamic range.

I think that for the 4K resolution that the Mysterium sensor offers, the 35mm sensor size is adequate.

The compression in the Red camera being 1/12 looks great!

CineForm offers 1/5 and it looks good too.

I even like the Red camera, but it's "Achilles heel" is the rolling shutter problem.

Everything has a solution...but sometimes it cost a lot of money. And one has to let the "pride" aside in order to make a decision in the right direction.

CR>
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#8 Joakim Sandstrom

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 01:50 PM

The compression in the Red camera being 1/12 looks great!

CineForm offers 1/5 and it looks good too.


I hate compression. Never a good thing. mp3 is successful. I hate mp3. Above 24bit 96khz uncompressed is where I hear no difference.

Edited by Joakim Sandstrom, 16 January 2008 - 01:51 PM.

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#9 Cesar Rubio

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 02:07 PM

I hate compression. Never a good thing. mp3 is successful. I hate mp3. Above 24bit 96khz uncompressed is where I hear no difference.


Joakim:

Uncompressed raw produces huge files. If you don't have a good de-bayer "engine" on your software, is better to go with a compression company like CineForm, which produces the best images that I've seen yet with a Machine vision camera (MVC) in Raw acquisition.


If you want to go raw uncompressed, even at 1080p you have to use at least 2 Seagate 10 HD's in Raid for recording....I hate Raids and I prefer compression instead. Also you have to use BIG capacity HD's in contrast to compressed recording.

Raid arrays multiplies the risk of data loss by each additional HD...that's why I "hate" them. Speed-wise they are great.

See?, everything has it's advantages and dis-advantages. With MVC's like the Pike F-210c, you can record Uncompressed or Compressed Raw, its up to anyone to decide upon his/her likes.

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#10 Michael Collier

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 03:00 PM

If you want uncompressed, shoot film and finish chemically. Its really the only way right now. Sure you can dual link, dual SRs and get HD uncompressed, but if you got the cash for that, film isn't more than a stones throw away depending on the type of material your shooting, its distrabution plan, etc.

Red fits a small window. Think the 1mil feature that is pressed on budget for being ambitious. Sure theres money there for film, for an F900, etc, but in the end, you can rent a few reds for the price of an F900 and still be able to filmout. Is it perfect? No but when budget is limited compromises have to be made. Its a matter of which compromises are acceptable and which are not. its purely subjective (as most choices in filmmaking are)

Red has problems, but its a solid offering for a first camera from the company. From what I read the accessories are poorly built though, so if I end up buying a red, I am going to zacuto for support, but the camera is decent for the price. But like was said before its not really the same market as a F900, or the F23 (which if I am not mistaken, is not out yet right?)

They say they are developing a lower end prosumer-ish camera, I would like to see them come out with a Red pro after that. Take all the lessons they have learned and make an uncompromising 4K (or more)camera with uncompressed out and a suitable recording option for storing that data. Make a camera that is uncompromising, even if its expensive. Make one for the bigger budget flicks that choose video not because they can't afford film, but for whatever reason they want video (Michael Mann, Bryan Singer, George Lucas have all shot 100mil+ on video, so there are projects out there) That would really round out their selection.

Still more choices are better than no choices. Not long ago (relatively) I was shooting my 'films' on one of the first VHS camcorders, editing VCR to VCR and wound up with over-detailed, under-saturated muddy crap, so as far as I am concerned the future is looking up.

as for the compression, its not ideal, but from the raw footage I have played with in RedCine, its pretty adequate and it makes storage and backup and data wrangling less of a nightmare. I am getting about 30gB of unproccessed redcode in the next few weeks to test so I will be able to report more soon. Hopefully within two months I will get a chance to test a red out for myself, and have a better informed opinion.
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#11 Cesar Rubio

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 03:23 PM

If you want uncompressed, shoot film and finish chemically. Its really the only way right now. Sure you can dual link, dual SRs and get HD uncompressed, but if you got the cash for that, film isn't more than a stones throw away depending on the type of material your shooting, its distrabution plan, etc.


Michael:

I've recorded uncompressed raw at 1080p with the Pike F-210c camera already. For 4K, I think is not an option right now, but 2K and lower uncompressed raw is achievable today with some cameras.

Digital has its advantages over film, like lower cost, be able to see your footage while on set. and most important (for me at least) is been able to perfectly sync 2 cameras for stereoscopic recording (3-D).

Film still has its advantages like better saturation and a better dynamic range (16 bit scans can be made). But digital is approaching it more everyday.

The Red camera is a good example, just if it didn't had that rolling shutter CMOS sensor....


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#12 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 03:23 PM

I'm really not sure why people see disk-based HD as expensive - actually it can be very cheap if you're smart.

P
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#13 Joakim Sandstrom

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 03:28 PM

About uncompressed data,
I love raid0. All this talk about disk error. I have never heard of a cheetah drive crash.
I have 6 SAS cheetah 15K in raid0, windows x64, I got ~450 MBytes/sec sustained. I read 2K diTTo scanned 10bit dpx files off disk. Material shot on kodak 5201. I've written an opengl program that does color-correction, sharpening etc using GLSL pixel shaders. I am using a Geforce 8800GTX. Debayering in a pixel shader would be trivial. This setup is cheap and robust. Now I want to get rid of film artifacts ( gate movement, grain ) = digital cameras.

But, did not want to hi-jack your thread, this was about the shutter problem.

I think that the only option to Red at this time, in order to avoid a mass "stampede", is to offer a CCD "up-grade" sensor. But it will increase the price considerably, and I don't know if those "loyal" customers will be so loyal after hearing that their "dream" camera is going to be more expensive.


I think the whole look of red is because of the cmos. Cmos chips does looks great. Red is a canon eos-1 for moving images. So I dont think that is an option, you would get a different look ( f23 style ).

Edited by Joakim Sandstrom, 16 January 2008 - 03:31 PM.

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#14 Sam Wells

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 03:28 PM

I would worry about

* Stereoscopic shooting, the two sensors being out of sync.


Well Geoff Boyle has done this so we'll see but have we heard of it as a problem ?

-Sam
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#15 John Sprung

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 03:33 PM

I haven't read anything about this important issue in this forum, and I would like to know what everybody thinks about it.

Some in the Red forum are calling it a "deal-breaker" problem....

Cesar Rubio.

It has been discussed in this very forum quite thoroughly. At most, it's a minor problem.

It shows up very clearly if you have strobes firing at random in a shot. Somebody posted some frame captures of this. Part of a frame gets the strobe light, part doesn't, and there's a sharp horizontal line dividing them. There might be a way to solve this by syncing the strobes and camera, but depending on the budget, I'd either get a Genesis or lose the strobes. You could, in the low budget case, fake strobes in post.

It also shows up as a very subtle distortion of objects in rapid horizontal motion. Somebody caught that on a cannon wheel in the Peter Jackson test. Because the top of the frame is exposed at a different time than the bottom, such objects get a little "lean" to them. Personally, I find that to be barely detectable and not at all objectionable.

For the vast majority of real world storytelling, this is a non-issue. For only a very tiny minority it may be a deal breaker.




-- J.S.
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#16 Mitch Gross

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 05:17 PM

Hey, if you want uncompressed RAW and an insanely fast refresh on the sensor, use the Phantom HD. The only time anyone could detect any screw with the shutter was with lightening bolt strikes.
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#17 Joakim Sandstrom

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 05:33 PM

Hey, if you want uncompressed RAW and an insanely fast refresh on the sensor, use the Phantom HD. The only time anyone could detect any screw with the shutter was with lightening bolt strikes.


Mitch - thanks, but I need (hacked) digiprimes. Stereoscopic, dual cameras, lens centers <=70mm apart, infinite focus. Only option at the moment seem to be 2 x hacked f23:s. Unless the HVX3000:s sensor can somehow be hacked into. Must have 60p also.

Edited by Joakim Sandstrom, 16 January 2008 - 05:35 PM.

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#18 Gunleik Groven

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 10:33 PM

I hate compression. Never a good thing. mp3 is successful. I hate mp3. Above 24bit 96khz uncompressed is where I hear no difference.



I rather like compression, when done well...


But, then again, my Red is due in a month, so I guess that makes me a fanboy...

Gunleik
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#19 Mr. Macgregor

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 04:09 PM

If you plan to shoot Bourne 4 or that kind of stuff forget the RED, at least with build 12. The distorsion is huge in fast pans or fast objects.
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#20 Jase Ryan

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 06:09 PM

Can someone explain this "rolling shutter" problem? I don't fully understand what you mean by "rolling". What is technically happening there and what happens to the image?

Thanks,

Jase
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