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Agfa Movexoom 10


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#1 Don Brown

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 05:36 AM

Has anybody been inside Movexoom 10 can't workout how to remove control knobs don't want to use brute force



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Don
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#2 Don Brown

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 09:29 AM

Has anybody been inside Movexoom 10 can't workout how to remove control knobs don't want to use brute force



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Don

Hi Everyone
Forgot what I asked have found Service Manual its on its way.


Regards


Don
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#3 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:54 PM

Hi Everyone
Forgot what I asked have found Service Manual its on its way.


Regards


Don


Have you considered a service professional? Those cameras are kind of cool, they have 10 times zoom starting at a very cool 6mm wide angle. There are very few cameras that go all the way down to 6mm on the wide side. I have yet to shoot with mine but I am very curious how the 6mm looks.
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#4 Don Brown

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 04:11 AM

Have you considered a service professional? Those cameras are kind of cool, they have 10 times zoom starting at a very cool 6mm wide angle. There are very few cameras that go all the way down to 6mm on the wide side. I have yet to shoot with mine but I am very curious how the 6mm looks.



Hi Alessandro
Thanks for that, I have another 3 two non-sound and one sound not much use as stock obsolete
I have got inside and have found a resistor over heating, it was working when I got it, the chance of finding a engineer here in UK that can work on a 30 year old 8mm camera is very slim
I have the Service manual on order which should have a circuit diagram which I will be able to see whats pulling current though that resistor. I am an electronic engineer who has worked on 35/16mm
cameras when I was Head of sound maintenace for Samuelson Film Service which at its time was the largest film equipment rental in the World.
I want to do some mods on camera so I don't mind its not working, nice board inside seems to use stepper for the auto iris and tacho on motor may be able to xtal lock.


Regards

Don
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#5 Jim Carlile

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 06:46 AM

Coincidentally, I was just reading an old Movie Maker article today that mentioned the Agfa Movexoom at Photokina, and it did note, yes, that it had a stepper motor for the iris that used something like 32 "pulses" per f/stop. They were very proud of this in 1975 which means AFAIK that this was one of the earliest sort of 'digital' "pulse' consumer pieces anywhere. I had always thought it was some $$$ Bang and Olufsen component but no, Super 8 apparently beat them to the punch. The article also said it used something like "MOS technology" which made me smile, but that was a very big deal for the time.

Edited by Jim Carlile, 02 February 2008 - 06:50 AM.

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#6 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 11:03 AM

It was a big deal, as AGFA was one of the first companies to push electronification in Super 8 gear (in a time when the brand-new Arriflex 16 SR was still a mechanical device and not a field computer like the Advanced today) forward, half-a decade before it really started off with the later Nizo sound cameras and the Bauer S 715 XL microcomputer which really was all about that "silly-con" chip inside (nice features, but practical usability of them... :unsure: )

MOS is of course neither the Ministry of Sound, nor a Microsoft Office Specialist, let alone anyhow related to the urban myth of "Mit ohne Sound" in our industry.

It stands for metal?oxide?semiconductor, which means that its basically just a common field-effect transistor for digital or indeed analog circuits. But it sounded cool then, 2 years before Apple launched its Apple I, n.b.! It also was definitely more substantial in used technology than Beaulieu's "Hall Sensor System", which was just a rip-off advertising claim!

Nevertheless, the Agfa Movexoom series had other shortcomings that hindered it to become a major market force challenging Bauer or Nizo, and the "Geschmacksmuster"-lawsuit brought against Agfa by Braun Nizo eliminated any chance for large market-share success.
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#7 Jim Carlile

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 09:49 PM

Michael, was Minolta involved with these Afga cameras, as they were with the Microflex (they made those, didn't they?)

What was the lawsuit about?

The more I learn about these Agfas and the Zeiss Ikons, the more impressive they are.-- they were way ahead of their time-- they seemed to have come up with most of the advances and big ideas.
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#8 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 11:26 PM

Minolta was indeed involved with the construction of the cameras, in the way that they supplied the lenses! Why do you ask?

Despite claims and even published material claiming that the optics used by Agfa were Made in Germany, it was actually Minolta that built and supplied the Variostar-series in Japan, such as for the Agfa Movexoom 10 MOS Electronic with the Variostar 1:1,8 / 6-60mm.


You might remember that we were not able to include this particularly interesting model in tests that eventually lead to the Super 8 Top Camera Guide list published here and extensively discussed in the current and next issues of Super 8 Today.

Well, we rectified this omission recently with a private initiative as my brother purchased a mint condition model and is currently experimenting with it. So far, my brother got back mixed results, but I shall keep you posted about how the camera fits in. I think I will hijack this thread for this ^_^ , as it is so beautifully named and hopefully attracts potential readers when they search the Agfa Movexoom term (people use the search function here, do they?! :unsure: :rolleyes: ).


As far as the legal case against Agfa brought up by Nizo (Braun) is concerned:
Braun, then owner of the Nizo marque, sued Agfa for 'Geschmacksmusterverletzung', the German word for what could best be translated as "violation of the form factor of its trademark products" (ahh, I love German, always a unpronoucnible and complicted one-word-term at hand... :P ).

Braun had established itself in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s as the world's premier industry design company, and its design work, principally crafted by Dieter Ram, was globally recognised as such. Even today, as Braun is essentially no longer existing (as is all of Germany's electric and electronic industry sector), its bygone electric shavers and Hi-Fi components and cameras are truly competing with the best contemporary design can offer today, and IMHO get rarely beaten. Dieter Ram's influence even resonates quite clearly (maybe too clearly for me, even as I am a convinced Apple user since 1983) in the work of Jonathan Ive at Apple (I actually commented about that at the beginning of this post there).

As I said, Braun sued Agfa because if thought Agfa had done a violation of the form factor of its trademark products with the Movexoom-series, especially against the Nizo big-bodied cameras (in general) and the Nizo sound cameras (in detailings such as the switchgear arrangement). Braun won the case and Agfa had, as far as I remember, to cease production of the Movexoom-series.

Whether you agree with the courts or not is open to you. I put forward for your consideration pictoral evidence, with the pictures themselves originating form Super 8 Arena, a one of many, but particularly well-reputed Super 8 Camera E-Commerce outlets, as their digital stills showcase the problem at hand most clearly (not happy with me stealing your pics, S8A.com? Well, Sosumi -_- !)

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#9 Jim Carlile

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 04:38 AM

Interesting stuff. Thanks Michael.

Super 8 Arena has great photos-- I don't know how he does it. He makes all cameras look great. His photos of the Black Nizo silents are classics.
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#10 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:01 AM

You are welcome!

Can you see Braun's point?

Super 8 Arena's digital stills are very well set-up and lit. This really invites a great shopping experience, so I guess someone in the Super 8 market has learned his marketing lessons :) .
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#11 Don Brown

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:52 AM

Has anybody been inside Movexoom 10 can't workout how to remove control knobs don't want to use brute force



Regards


Don

Hi Everybody
Managed to get inside now I have manual, which helps as there are bits that hold board in place that you do not know without the info
Very nice build, top quality circuit board I think better than Nizo the two main IC's are still avaliable via internet stockist
The one I am working on is the sound version and have removed the brass flywheel on the capstan which has made the camera a bit lighter
The motor cicuit has a tacho feedback so looking at a quartz lock but still want to use the Timelapse and stop frame facility which works fine.
Michael I know what you mean when you say that Braun was upset but this happens all the time the Japanese & Russian's have be doing it for years, every Video camera now looks the same.
Anyway I have now 4 2 silent models and 2 sound both with 10-1 lenses and a baby Agfa 300

Regards

Don
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#12 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 01:35 PM

Agreed! I guess the difference was just that with the German Sue-me-sue-you culture, that issue was bound to end in the courts, whereas during the Cold War, lawsuits beyond the Iron Curtain were impossible, and as re. international lawsuits... well, if you aren't Apple who will sue to even if you life beyond Neptune, even companies like GM have problems enforcing their TMs today vis-à-vis China or Russia...

Hey, feel free to post some pics of your ongoing Agfa operation. It's always interesting to see the innards of some cameras. And good luck on results, Don!
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#13 Don Brown

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 01:50 PM

Agreed! I guess the difference was just that with the German Sue-me-sue-you culture, that issue was bound to end in the courts, whereas during the Cold War, lawsuits beyond the Iron Curtain were impossible, and as re. international lawsuits... well, if you aren't Apple who will sue to even if you life beyond Neptune, even companies like GM have problems enforcing their TMs today vis-à-vis China or Russia...

Hey, feel free to post some pics of your ongoing Agfa operation. It's always interesting to see the innards of some cameras. And good luck on results, Don!


Hi Michael
OK on that I never think of German way of business being involved in dirty tactics
I will post some bits as I go on, Are you still in Hampstead ?


Best wishes

Don
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#14 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 02:17 PM

Pretty much! London is like a curse... the worst and the best place to be at once :), between rat race and glory. Hey, looking forward to those pics. And frankly, I would love to hear some anecdotes from your years at Samuelson's. I have a mid-1980s issue of Samuelson's "Motion Picture Camera Data" book from Focal Press, and it is a trusty and reliable companion, of course featuring also many Super 8 cameras in it , next to Aäton 7s, Mitchells and Wollensacks :)
Although you are based further north in the non-colonial version of Boston, there is a UK London sub-forum here, which I am sure you have heard about... if not, click me...
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#15 Jim Carlile

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 03:05 AM

Hi Michael, I just happened to stumble across this patent for Nizo, issued in 1972 in the U.S., while I was looking for something else.

If you look at the reference, it's apparent that what Braun did is that they saw the Movexoom, and then turned around and patented their own design afterwards. Then they sued:

http://www.google.co...mp;dq=nizo film

It's interesting-- they only patented the design and it was granted.
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#16 Don Brown

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 08:15 AM

Pretty much! London is like a curse... the worst and the best place to be at once :), between rat race and glory. Hey, looking forward to those pics. And frankly, I would love to hear some anecdotes from your years at Samuelson's. I have a mid-1980s issue of Samuelson's "Motion Picture Camera Data" book from Focal Press, and it is a trusty and reliable companion, of course featuring also many Super 8 cameras in it , next to Aäton 7s, Mitchells and Wollensacks :)
Although you are based further north in the non-colonial version of Boston, there is a UK London sub-forum here, which I am sure you have heard about... if not, click me...

Hi Michael
Moved to Lincolnshire 20 years ago to get away from rat race but it seems to have followed me here Boston now has now doubled with oversea's workers
Spent 10 years at Sammies in Cricklewood running the Sound maintenance which got me sent to Switzerland to learn how to service Nagra's and then in 75 took over the Video Assist dept which was in it infancy days as only a few Directors used it
Went freelance when Hugh Hudson asked me to do Greystoke and have travelled the World doing sound and video assist
But have a passion for 8/16mm cameras from CP16 H16 K3's and a host of 8mm Bolex Canon Agfa

Best wishes

Don
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#17 Mark Dunn

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 01:54 PM

I can recommend the Polish restaurant in West Street, though.
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#18 Don Brown

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 03:17 PM

I can recommend the Polish restaurant in West Street, though.

Hi Mark
There's a great Indian there as well



Don
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#19 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:47 PM

Hi Michael, I just happened to stumble across this patent for Nizo, issued in 1972 in the U.S., while I was looking for something else.

If you look at the reference, it's apparent that what Braun did is that they saw the Movexoom, and then turned around and patented their own design afterwards. Then they sued:

http://www.google.co...mp;dq=nizo film

It's interesting-- they only patented the design and it was granted.


Google Patent Search?!?! Holy Moly, I just grasped Google Analytics, and then, Mountain View challenges my brain with something new and cool... while not being evil, of course.

Very very interesting. That Braun/Nizo would patent their design primarily is something I can see why, as that was their "Unique Selling Proposition", and with Dieter Ram's work universally recognised, I can't see why that wouldn't have gone through. See also original iMac or iBook or the Rolls-Royce grill, as alternative examples.

Now, you will need to help me out here re the chronology, as I can't follow that (might be also because it's late/early and keeping abreast with Super Tuesday in the UK for work is exhausting :lol: ).

Are you saying that Agfa came up with the Movexoom 6/10 shape first, and then Braun-Nizo came up with their small-bodied/big-bodied cameras shape later, but were first to patent it and then sued Agfa..?
Or are you saying that Nizo had their small-bodied/big-bodied cameras shape out there, but without patent protection for the design, THEN saw Agfa "copying" them, reg'd a design patent, and after it being granted, sued Agfa for their due infringement.

As far as I can remember, the Agfa Movexoom X000 series (the four digit cameras) ? those boxy Plan-9-from-Outer-Space-like laser pistol designs ? were around until the early 1970s, like 1973 to 74 or so. The new Agfa Movexoom 6 or 10 MOS Electronic models that lookalike to the Nizo small-bodied/big-bodied cameras came ? I think ? to market in the mid-1970s, by the time Nizo had THEIR shape on the market for years. After all, the early Nizo S 8 models came out in the mid-to-late 1960s already, nearly a decade before Agfa launched their controversially looking Movexoom cameras...

Posted Image

Also: my brother gave me a nod doing his own research about the newly acquired Movexoom 10, and said that according to Jürgen Lossau's Super 8 camera book, Agfa was only condemned to make minor design alterations to the late Movexoom shape to comply with the courts and satisfy Braun/Nizo.

Another point that might have lead to Agfa's camera-making downfall is also that those models were extremely high priced and competing with top gear such as the Bauer A 512 and Nizo professional, yet did not offer true production camera value as found on those cameras... just a thought...
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#20 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 01:18 AM

Hi Michael
Moved to Lincolnshire 20 years ago to get away from rat race but it seems to have followed me here Boston now has now doubled with oversea's workers
Spent 10 years at Sammies in Cricklewood running the Sound maintenance which got me sent to Switzerland to learn how to service Nagra's and then in 75 took over the Video Assist dept which was in it infancy days as only a few Directors used it
Went freelance when Hugh Hudson asked me to do Greystoke and have travelled the World doing sound and video assist
But have a passion for 8/16mm cameras from CP16 H16 K3's and a host of 8mm Bolex Canon Agfa

Best wishes

Don


Wow. Just wow (sorry for the juvenile reaction...)

I would expect to come up with at least three dozen questions just reading your post, but I am a bit stunned right now. I am sure my senses will come back eventually with alot of annoying anecdote request from you...

Wow, you worked with Hugh Hudson on "Greystoke". I must say I was a young kid when it came out, and I couldn't get into the film then because of its mature approach to the Tarzan novel by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Bear in mind that at that time, for me, Tarzan was associated with the Johnny Weissmuller and Lex Barker versions broadcast on German TV in the afternoon. I had truly seen "Greystoke" for the first time just a few years ago after moving to the UK in the original version (no German dub, which matters alot) and actually was taken by it. The England sequences are beautifully filmed. And I was pleasantly astonished by Lambert's acting, not having been convinced by him in his other roles. But then again, saying that he impersonated a half-ape very well isn't maybe that much of a compliment... well, at least we have a 25-year-old Andie MacDowell to see debuting on the big screen...

In another thread discussing Cooke vs Zeiss aesthetics, I was talking about...

...the oddly warm light here in the UK, filled with that degree of moisture that defines the atmospheric humidity here even in hot summers and which gives the light that specific glow in the air, green-yellowish in nature, as the rays and particles get constantly broken.

Films by Stanley Kubrick aside, notably "Barry Lyndon" and "Clockwork Orange" of course, this is beautifully showcased in "Greystoke"!
...although it was shot with Zeiss rather than Cooke (hence somewhat undermining my above point on Cooke transcending what is filmed more into the artistic realm :rolleyes: )

So please forgive me my inquiring curiosity, what what did Video Operation encompass in 1983/84, practically on set at "Greystoke", at a time I guess where Video Assist still wasn't widespread? And how did it fit in with the film being the first (re-)adopter of Super Techniscope, i.e. Super 35? And how was it to work with the great John Alcott, someone I named publicly as someone I would have loved to apprentice with in this post here because of his rare cinematographic rhetoric.

Cheers, -Michael
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