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65mm frame rate


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#1 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 05:15 AM

I've been reading up on large format film and I noticed that 65mm runs at 30 fps, which I was not aware of. Is this due to the size of the frame?

Thanks for any info.
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#2 Max Jacoby

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 05:38 AM

You mean IMAX (65mm 8 or 15 perf) runs at 30 fps? 65mm 5 perf (2.20:1) runs at 24 fps.
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#3 Tebbe Schoeningh

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 10:48 AM

As far as I know only only the speed of "Showscan" varies from the 24 fps standard. I´m not sure about it´s standard frequency but wikipedia says that it is at 60 fps...
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#4 Phil Connolly

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 12:03 PM

Early Todd-AO films were shot at 30fps on 65mm stock such as Oklahoma!, they actually filmed it twice. Using 30 fps - Todd AO 65mm cameras and 24 fps Cinemascope cameras for the 35mm version. Only a few Todd AO films were shot at 30fps, it was discontinued due to the inability of converting to 24 fps for 35mm distribution and the shooting every take on two separate formats ala Oklahoma wasn't cost effective. Later Todd AO films were 24 fps.

The same thing happened with Cinerama films, the first few were shot at 26fps but the later cinerama titles were shot at 24fps for better compatibility with conventional 35mm cinemas.

Showscan was indeed 60fps 65mm, and watching it does have a video feel to the motion - but with perfect hi resolution grain free images.

There was a short lived Imax HD format that shot at 48fps, but I think only a couple of compatible projectors were made and one or two films. I really think Imax would benefit from higher frame rates, many films look really jerky on such a large screen.
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#5 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 12:13 PM

Accordiing to the Amercan Widescreen Museum, two different camera negatives were produced for Mike Todd's "Around the World in 80 Days" - both were 65mm. One, running at 30fps, was to be used for the 70mm presentation and the other, running at 24 fps, for the 35mm reduction print. It seems that this was unique to this film, but I don't get why 30 fps was utilized. It makes it sound as if this process was used for the entire film. And what would be the benefit of shooting at 30 fps in the first place, for this production?

Maybe I'm missing something...

http://widescreenmus...een/wingto8.htm
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#6 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 01:06 PM

3-camera/projector Cinerama was 26 fps. Michael Todd wanted to compete with Cinerama (he had been kicked off their board) so he developed with American Optical what he called "Cinerama out of one hole" -- 65mm Todd-AO. They decided to top Cinerama and use 30 fps.

Basically the higher the frame rate, the better the image looks and the better the sound is.

But both Cinerama and Todd-AO switched to 24 fps eventually to make optical printer reductions to 35mm possible for standard theatrical releasing, rather than shoot two negatives.

"Oklahoma!" shot 30 fps 65mm and 24 fps 35mm CinemaScope, and the next one, "Around the World in Eighty Days", shot 30 fps and 24 fps 65mm versions, just so they could make an optical printer reduction of the 24 fps version to 35mm CinemaScope. After that, they switched to 24 fps.

MGM forced Cinerama to switch from 26 to 24 fps when they made the two narrative features in 3-camera Cinerama, "Wonderful World of Brothers Grimm" and "How the West Was Won".
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#7 Delorme Jean-Marie

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 05:33 PM

hi
8/70 and 15/70 cams run a various frame rate

you can plug a norris intervalometer an go time laps.
you can run an imax cam at 24/ 30 upt 48fps depend on the electronic board yous asked for
imax MKII and IW5 run at thos rates
if you want to run hi speed rent an IW8 that will go up to 60fps
remember those cameras are more or les prototypes so aske for what you need and they'll do it for you (imax)


hope it helps
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#8 Mitch Gross

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 10:19 PM

In the US, cable networks like Turner Classic Movies (TCM) occassionally show "Oklahoma!" in both varieties -- a video tansfer of the 24fps CinemaScope version (3:2 pulldown) and a transfer of the 30fps Todd-AO version (2:2 pulldown). In addition to the sharpness, depth and barrel-distortion (it was meant to be shown on a large curved screen) of the Todd-AO version, the other most moticable difference is how "video-like" the movement appears. The difference between 24fps & 30fps is very apparent to my eyes on even the most casual of viewing. Not better or worse, just different. I find the richness & depth make the Todd-AO version the superior one for me.
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#9 John Brawley

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 11:02 PM

As far as I know only only the speed of "Showscan" varies from the 24 fps standard. I´m not sure about it´s standard frequency but wikipedia says that it is at 60 fps...


Legendary VFX supervisor Doug Trumbull (2001, Close Encounters, Blade Runner) developed Showscan after purportedly testing footage shot at different frame rates on psych students. He wired them up and measured their heart rates and respiration and found that 60 FPS offered the best compromise in increased physiological response and lowest practical shooting rate. In other words, the same scenes, shot and projected at higher frame rates, delivered increased physiological responses for the audience watching. He could measure slight increases in reaction after 60 FPS, but it was a case of diminishing returns. And projectors couldn't easily be modified to go much faster than 60 FPS !

He developed it for his second directorial outing on Brainstorm. (His first film was Silent Running). The idea was that certain sequences in brainstorm would be projected at higher frames rates. Within the story world, people's brain functions can be recorded and played back, allowing the viewer to experience other people's thoughts and experiences. Showscan was to be used for the "pov" sequences of other peoples thoughts. I think a system was developed that allowed the projector to detect the change in scenes and speed up or switch to a faster playback projector for those scenes.

Of course, nobody wanted to spend the money on upgrading their projectors for just one film, so it never happened. So Doug took the technology and turned to ride films where the higher frame rates made more sense.

This is all remembered from a story I read in Cinefex a few years ago. (i think ?)

jb

NOTE:

Just found this link for more detail
http://www.barbeefil.....0It Works.htm
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#10 Mitch Gross

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 09:56 AM

Rather than changing projector speed midway (which would need a ramp up/ramp down and put a lot of wear on the mechanism and the print), the idea was to take the rest of the material and step print it 2:3 similar to how the get 24fps film onto 60i video. When the studio rejected the use of Showscan, the alternative was to shoot the "regular" part of the film in 1.85 and the "VR-brainstorming" parts in anamorphic (It may have been 5-perf 65mm, can't recall). The 1.85 material was optically printed onto the 2.35 with black borders on the side. I remember even as a kid finding this very effective yet subtle.
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#11 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 11:47 AM

Cool. Thanks, guys.
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#12 Thomas James

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 12:19 PM

The future of high framerate cinema production is probably not 65 mm film but rather 4k digital projection. Most if not all directors have been opposed to higher framerates because it effectively destroys the film look by making it more video like.

However with the introduction of high definition television many consumers complained that their LCD televisions suffered from motion blur. Engineers in order to solve the problem invented 120 hertz technology that effective doubles the framerate of any source by using vector motion framerate interpolation technology. While it can be argued whether or not natural motion can be achieved with this technology one fact remains is that this radically alters the film look by making it more like video. Yet salesman are agressively pushing this technology by telling consumers that they must have a big screen 1080p 120 hertz television with a free Blu-Ray disc player in order to achieve the ultimate home theatre experience. Consumers not knowing any better buy into this technology even though their movies look like cheesy soap operas.

Now that the cat is out of the box I predict that once digital 4k projection becomes more mainstream directors will attempt to take back control of the framerate by offering a hybrid look. Drama sequences will be filmed at 24 frames per second while action scenes will be filmed at 48 frames per second. This will give the best of both worlds which is the film look of 24 fps and the fast action motion capability of 48 fps.

Edited by Thomas James, 28 January 2008 - 12:20 PM.

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#13 John Sprung

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 01:47 PM

And projectors couldn't easily be modified to go much faster than 60 FPS !

A friend of mine worked with Trumbull back then. They really did want to go faster than 60, the issue was survival of the film. Wear and tear on the prints made it impractical to go faster than 60.

The AA-2 Norelco projectors were what they used for Todd/AO. They had interchangeable movements for 35 and 70, and two drive motors, one for 24 fps, and another for 30 fps. When the old Four Star theater closed in Hollywood, I helped buy a pair of them for the city of LA to install in the Warner Grand in San Pedro. They had the 70 kits with them, but we never got to try it.




-- J.S.
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#14 Antti Näyhä

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 01:59 PM

Now that the cat is out of the box I predict that once digital 4k projection becomes more mainstream directors will attempt to take back control of the framerate by offering a hybrid look. Drama sequences will be filmed at 24 frames per second while action scenes will be filmed at 48 frames per second. This will give the best of both worlds which is the film look of 24 fps and the fast action motion capability of 48 fps.

On an interesting note, the current DCI spec only allows 24 or 48 fps for 2k material, and just 24 fps for 4k - probably because of the data rate restrictions.

I find it a bit strange that only two frame rates have been included. Surely the technology would have allowed for more flexibility? Now, for example, digital restorations of most silent films will have to be subjected to uneven pulldown (or "digital step printing") rates, which seems like a backward step really.
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#15 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 02:42 PM

When the studio rejected the use of Showscan, the alternative was to shoot the "regular" part of the film in 1.85 and the "VR-brainstorming" parts in anamorphic (It may have been 5-perf 65mm, can't recall). The 1.85 material was optically printed onto the 2.35 with black borders on the side. I remember even as a kid finding this very effective yet subtle.


I saw this movie in a theatre that had a 2:1 screen, so they showed their scope & 70mm movies slightly cropped.
It seemed to me that the regular material was 1.66:1.
The brian storm scenes were 65mm. They used a knockoff of the smaller Todd-AO bug eye and a 19mm Kowa medium format fisheye for the 65mm Panaglide.
I think that if a 70mm print were shown on a deep curved screen, the 1.66:1 material would have mostly been in the "flatter" center of the arced screen.

In the pre-multiplex era, many of the theatres here were projecting 1.66:1 instead of 1.85:1.
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#16 Thomas James

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 02:47 PM

Since all of the worlds film projectors run at 24 frames per second the American Society of Cinematographers have demanded that higher framerate movies must be mastered at 48 frames per second in order to be natively compatible with 24 fps film prints. Therefore Doug Trumbles Showscan format that runs at 60 frames per second will be undesireable because converting 60 fps to 24 fps will result in motion artifacts. Perhaps the reson why 4k was never specified to run at 48 frames per second was because Hollywood directors have never shown an interest in faster framerates because they want to preserve the film look. However the 120 hertz television is changing all of this because these televsions essentially double the framerate. The problems with 4k at 24 fps will be apparent when movie customers who are used to the fast action display capabilities of their 120 hertz 1080p televisions complain about motion blurring and motion sickness when they go to the theatre. Movie customers will wonder why they have to pay for a movie ticket when the image looks worse than their home theatre. Hollywood directors will then demand the ammendment of the digital 4k standard so that it is 48 fps capable. However in order to preserve the film look the drama portions of the movie will be filmed at 24 fps and the action will be filmed at 48 fps.
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#17 Max Jacoby

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 03:51 PM

Yawn

Our resident Energizer Bunny goes on and on and on...
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