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Are 200ft Super 8Rolls gone forever???


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#1 Tony Bullock

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 05:15 PM

I see Kodak used to make 200ft rolls of super8 stock that would give up to 10mins recording time.

Would these fit any Super 8 camera? I have just bought a Leicina Special that I want to use for a feature length project. I would be over the moon if I could get longer runtimes but it appears they have long since ceased making them.

Anyone know if there is another way, I once heard of something called a 'Supermag' but I think it only worked with a few cameras.
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#2 Brian Dzyak

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:01 PM

I see Kodak used to make 200ft rolls of super8 stock that would give up to 10mins recording time.

Would these fit any Super 8 camera? I have just bought a Leicina Special that I want to use for a feature length project. I would be over the moon if I could get longer runtimes but it appears they have long since ceased making them.

Anyone know if there is another way, I once heard of something called a 'Supermag' but I think it only worked with a few cameras.


Way back in 1991, some friends and I made a feature using Super 8mm. We bought camera and sound equipment from Super 8 Sound in Burbank (we were in Bowling Green, Ohio at the time). The camera they had (which I no longer own :( ) was the Beaulieu 5008S http://www.duallcame...aulieu6008s.jpg It had a small removable panel on the top of the camera so it could use the 200 foot preloaded mags.

Here's one I found for sale: http://images.google...htt...=off&sa=G


I don't have any pix of the 200 foot magazine unfortunately and I can't seem to find one on the web either. :( They were pretty cool though, especially for shooting a narrative. We used the normal 50' cartridges when using the camera on a Steadicam Jr.


Of course now, we wouldn't shoot the movie on Super 8. The Kodachrome 40 was too hard for me to shoot at the time (not enough lighting experience yet) and it isn't the quietest camera either. Really great look when I did expose it correctly, but if I had to do it all over again today, I'd opt for 23.98P HD. Oh well. Live and learn. :P
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#3 Bernhard Zitz

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 07:42 PM

Anyone know if there is another way, I once heard of something called a 'Supermag' but I think it only worked with a few cameras.


The Supermag or SuperDrive:

http://super8wiki.co...perDrive_SD8/60

and that's what you feed it:

http://www.wittner-k...ilmm/s8_60m.php


The disposable 200ft cardridges from kodak were discontinued a long time ago.
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#4 Brian Dzyak

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:04 PM

The Supermag or SuperDrive:

http://super8wiki.co...perDrive_SD8/60

and that's what you feed it:

http://www.wittner-k...ilmm/s8_60m.php


The disposable 200ft cardridges from kodak were discontinued a long time ago.



I've never seen that kind of mag before. I think that Super8 Sound made their own and filled them with their own Kodachrome 40 stock. The mags we used were more boxy. I'll have to dig through the old photos to see if I can come up with a production shot.
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#5 david savetsky

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:30 PM



I see Kodak used to make 200ft rolls of super8 stock that would give up to 10mins recording time.

Would these fit any Super 8 camera? I have just bought a Leicina Special that I want to use for a feature length project. I would be over the moon if I could get longer runtimes but it appears they have long since ceased making them.

Anyone know if there is another way, I once heard of something called a 'Supermag' but I think it only worked with a few cameras.


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#6 david savetsky

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:34 PM

200 FT SOUND K40 AVAILABLE FOR SALE AND SOUND CAMERAS FOR RENT OR SALE.
WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED?
DAVE IN NEW JERSEY
USA
:rolleyes:
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#7 andy oliver

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 04:30 AM

I see Kodak used to make 200ft rolls of super8 stock that would give up to 10mins recording time.

Would these fit any Super 8 camera? I have just bought a Leicina Special that I want to use for a feature length project. I would be over the moon if I could get longer runtimes but it appears they have long since ceased making them.

Anyone know if there is another way, I once heard of something called a 'Supermag' but I think it only worked with a few cameras.



Hi, those 200ft loads have long since gone, they were also designed for direct sound recording. Nizo, beaulieu 6008s and upwards, some elmo cameras would also accomadte the 200 ft mag. If you deperate for longer running time, look at this link, http://wittner-kinot...ilmm/s8_60m.php film is available, a camera conversion ( if still available ) will cost a fortune. I've only ever seen one beaulieu sd60 on ebay. imo, stick with your special.

Edited by andy oliver, 03 February 2008 - 04:31 AM.

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#8 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 11:29 AM

Would these fit any Super 8 camera? I have just bought a Leicina Special that I want to use for a feature length project. I would be over the moon if I could get longer runtimes but it appears they have long since ceased making them

How necessary is having 10 min as opposed to 2.5min for feature work? Not many scenes consist of shots more than a few seconds. Maybe a 200ft mag would be good for concerts or weddings in theory, but not with the hassle you would have to go through to use old expired stocks that are rare and hard to find in 200ft mags... Limited to either K40 which sucks, or E160 that you can't get processed anymore. I find the 50ft carts much more convienant... once you get away from the concept of rolling endless tape and start carefully composing film shots, 2.5 min is plenty. Many times it will take me all day to finish a 50ft roll.
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#9 Oron Cohen

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 12:23 PM

How necessary is having 10 min as opposed to 2.5min for feature work? Not many scenes consist of shots more than a few seconds. Maybe a 200ft mag would be good for concerts or weddings in theory, but not with the hassle you would have to go through to use old expired stocks that are rare and hard to find in 200ft mags... Limited to either K40 which sucks, or E160 that you can't get processed anymore. I find the 50ft carts much more convienant... once you get away from the concept of rolling endless tape and start carefully composing film shots, 2.5 min is plenty. Many times it will take me all day to finish a 50ft roll.

As someone who shoots lot's of 16mm, I'm not agree with you, 10min rolls are so important as a toll to get certain things out of scene...I would be glad to get that toll in super8.
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#10 Tony Bullock

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 01:52 PM

I actually shoot very long takes as part of my normal working process. I improvise a fair amount and improvisations are rarely short! I have worked on 35mm and 16mm in the past on my longer projects, but after seeing the results we got on a 2k grade with a short super 8 section (within a 16mm film), I became excited about the idea of making an entire feature on Super 8 or DS8 as it seems modern technology could breath new life in what is possible from this tiny 8mm beauty.

I bought the Leicina Special as it seems to be highly regarded in terms of sharpness and image stability but as with all things, the more I dig around, the more exciting options seem to get unearthed. My aim is not to try and make 8mm look like 16mm or 35mm, but to simply get the best that can be achieved from the 8mm negative whilst retaining it's own natural aesthetic and character.

As I say, seeing how well it has integrated into my 16mm project in the High Def grading process has been a real eye opener and I'm sure that with that kind of technology, the best of the old super 8 technology and the right story, something really special could be produced.

Apart from the Beaulieu 6008 with the 200ft cassette adapter, is the only other option to go DS8 to get longer run times?
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#11 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 03:25 PM

With DS8 you do get 5 min per side of a 100ft spool and the sharpness & registration is much better than S8. The downside you have limited stocks available. In theory, a very nice looking feature could be made on 7201 & 7217 DS8, if the stocks were cut and you had a quiet camera but that is not the case. However 100D reversal is available (and looks amazing) or fomapan B&W, but thats pretty much it. There aren't many DS8 camera models and they are pretty loud.

Edited by Anthony Schilling, 03 February 2008 - 03:26 PM.

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#12 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 04:59 PM

I don't have any pix of the 200 foot magazine unfortunately and I can't seem to find one on the web either. :( They were pretty cool though, especially for shooting a narrative.


Has all already been posted here:

For an overview of the Super 8 cartridges available, click here.


Please could all here make a distincition between a cartridge and a magazine.

A cartridge is the patented disposable plastic casing used by Kodak for the Kodapak Coaxial Instamatic-Cartridge and the Ektasound Coaxial Instamatic-Cartridge, the latter being available as 200ft sound cartridge, too. Only a few cameras where able to accept these cartridges that stuck out from the top (as above pictoral link shows). Most notable cameras where the Nizo 6056 and 6080 and the Beaulieu 6/7/9008-series.

The Beaulieu SD860 (for 200ft daylight spools) and the prototyped yet never really sold SuperMag (for 400ft daylight spools) are magazines, like those found on 16mm and 35mm cameras: they are reusable, can be opened up, have daylight spools or cores with film inserted, and only the film is then taken out and send to the lab. In the case of the Ektasound Coaxial Instamatic-Cartridge, the entire thingy was send off, just as with the regular 50ft Kodapak.

We shot a feature ? "Morpheus ragged", currently in restoration ? with commag using Ektasound Coaxial Instamatic-Cartridge in 200ft versions using a Beaulieu 6008 S in 1994, and I must say I was not convinced by either the design, the stability and the operability ? and that was just the Beaulieu 6008 S I am talking about :P (a truly trashy piece of engineering in their first series incarnation, I must say, with manufacturer Chinon really not caring about the Lexan mouldings for the camera body at all: all in all not worthy the Beaulieu nameplate when looking at the 4008-series).

The cartridge was actually quite good, and although I don't regret the entire Ektasound system's discontinuation by Kodak in 1997, the possiblity to shoot up to 10min of film continuously is quite good. In contrast to the cantankerous Beaulieu SD8/60, let alone the ill-conceived 400ft SuperMag, the Ektasound was lightweight and useful, whereas the SD8/60 is pushing the Super 8 format beyond what it was originally designed for and still marks it today as opposed to Super 16 or Super 35: ease-to-handle!
This was also the primary reason why it tanked on the market, and pushed the then-German distributor of Beaulieu, Ritter, closer to collapse... Well, the insane pricing and the required modification upgrade for the cameras (which became known as the final Beaulieu camera iteration, the Beaulieu 9008 Quartz) weren't helping, either.

As the fabrication moulds for the Ektasound system have been destroyed by Kodak, it is highly unlikely that we will see a relaunch, even from a cottage industry provider, in the future. Although not a shame and something to be deplored, the option was nice while it lasted, and opened up cinematic possibilities: if you come from 16mm and are used to work with generous 400ft clip-on magazines, the introduction of the Aaton's 800ft magazine for the X-series was equally cool and helped some filmmakers alot, especially if you are doing Direct Cinema documentaries like myself.
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#13 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 05:13 PM

Would these fit any Super 8 camera? I have just bought a Leicina Special that I want to use for a feature length project. I would be over the moon if I could get longer runtimes but it appears they have long since ceased making them.


The Leitz Leicina Special is a production camera, not a universal camera (which from my angle is good). It cannot accept anything other then the Kodapak Coaxial Instamatic-Cartridge ? and that means quite alot of excellent film stocks today in a uniformed system!

You will not be able to use Ektasound Coaxial Instamatic-Cartridges with it, either in the 50ft or 200ft version. As they are discontinued, looking for them would mean trying to track down film stock that had expired around 1997 to 1998. Don't do it if you are not after an ultra-washed-out-can't-make-out-anything-on-the-silver-screen look.

Likewise, the Beaulieu SD8/60 won't fit either, as there is no latched hatch door on top of the camera. Theoretically, you could start slaughtering your Leicina and attempt to adapt it to accommodate an SD8/60, but this would be extremely complicated and cost-intensive. Ritter wanted to adapt its SD8/60 for usage with the Nizo 6056 and 6080, but never managed to get the Nizo motors up to the required strength and torque. I think the probability to achieve this is only a fragment of Sir Richard Branson founding the nucleus of Starfleet together with Apple and Google in his lifetime (and that is quite probable, actually... B) )

Read my article on the Leitz Leicina Special, the second part of a multi-part series of articles about the best Super 8 gear available, in the next issue of Super 8 Today [shameless egocentric self-plug ends].

Enjoy this excellent camera for what it is, and good luck with the Cinegon, the next best thing to a Super 16 prime :D .
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#14 Jim Carlile

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 09:42 PM

Here's a quick list of the only cameras that will accept the 200 foot Kodak sound cartridges:

-- only the nizo 6056 and 6080, no others,

-- only the Beaulieu 6008 and up series

-- the Elmo 1012 SXL and 612 SXL, and the later simpler 230, 240, and 260 sound cameras.

-- none of the Canons...

-- several Sankyos

-- the primitive Kodak Ektasound Supermatics

there might be a few more (Bauers?) but not sure..... Kodachrome, 7244, and 7242 Ektachromes came in 200 foot sound loads....

If you can get a hold of a 200 foot cartridge, do so. Dwayne's will still process them (Kodachrome only) for about $35.
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#15 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 10:00 PM

Excellent list and highly appreciated effort, Jim.

I can actually state that no Bauer camera officially manufactured, produced and sold offered the option for the 200ft sound cartridge!

BTW:

If anyone here has a unusable or empty 200ft cartridge that s/he no longer wants to hold on, let alone shoot, please contact or PM me. I am kinda looking out to find a cartridge of that kind; not for shooting (I would actually prefer just the casing, in fact, only the upper sticking-out half might even suffice), though, but for something else...
Any help would be appreciated.

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#16 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 10:04 PM

I have worked on 35mm and 16mm in the past on my longer projects, but after seeing the results we got on a 2k grade with a short super 8 section (within a 16mm film), I became excited about [...] Super 8 [...] as it seems modern technology could breath new life in what is possible from this tiny 8mm beauty.
[...] My aim is not to try and make 8mm look like 16mm or 35mm, but to simply get the best that can be achieved from the 8mm negative whilst retaining it's own natural aesthetic and character.


Tony,

please excuse my manners.

Welcome to cinematography.com! I think you will find this to be the premier Super 8 resource for people interested in a professional and appreciative approach to Super 8, irrespective of whether they shoot on it professionally or care for the gear as cine-tech or collector.

On a personal note: it's always a pleasure to come across someone with whom I share my view and perspective on Super 8 1:1, as described by you above.

Should you need any form of assistance, please feel to contact me here or via PM.

-Michael
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#17 david savetsky

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 10:59 AM

Excellent list and highly appreciated effort, Jim.

I can actually state that no Bauer camera officially manufactured, produced and sold offered the option for the 200ft sound cartridge!

BTW:

If anyone here has a unusable or empty 200ft cartridge that s/he no longer wants to hold on, let alone shoot, please contact or PM me. I am kinda looking out to find a cartridge of that kind; not for shooting (I would actually prefer just the casing, in fact, only the upper sticking-out half might even suffice), though, but for something else...
Any help would be appreciated.


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#18 david savetsky

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:07 AM

Excellent list and highly appreciated effort, Jim.

I can actually state that no Bauer camera officially manufactured, produced and sold offered the option for the 200ft sound cartridge!

BTW:

If anyone here has a unusable or empty 200ft cartridge that s/he no longer wants to hold on, let alone shoot, please contact or PM me. I am kinda looking out to find a cartridge of that kind; not for shooting (I would actually prefer just the casing, in fact, only the upper sticking-out half might even suffice), though, but for something else...
Any help would be appreciated.


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#19 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:07 AM

David, thanks for quoting me, but you might find that your own words in this last post of yours are absent...
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#20 david savetsky

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:12 AM

Excellent list and highly appreciated effort, Jim.

I can actually state that no Bauer camera officially manufactured, produced and sold offered the option for the 200ft sound cartridge!

[i]BTW:

If anyone here has a unusable or empty 200ft cartridge that s/he no longer wants to hold on, let alone shoot, please contact or PM me. I am kinda looking out to find a cartridge of that kind;

$20 plus shipping and you got an empty cart 200ft k40
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