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RED CAMERA TEST : LART


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#1 Dane Brehm

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 12:59 PM

Hey Everyone,

If you have haven't already heard of the RED Digital 4K Camera than listen up. You can see cool, real world test footage on www.vuze.com under the GibCor Channel of RED content in 1080p and 720p. I worked as a 1st AC / Digital Acquisition Specialist getting the chance to learn the camera's inner-workings as well as a chance to learn the data-centric RAW work-flow. A friend recommended I share this with fellow filmmakers online, who haven't been able to see some great footage or side by side, RAW vs Graded comparisons.

disclaimer: This was shot in December with 4 beta REDs and one Red Prototype called "Hollywood" so some issue are no longer present in current builds.

LART was a 2 day event in LA to test the BETA RED Digital 4K Cameras in a variety of different and real world environments and situations. It was intended to give valuable feedback to RED and help them further develop the cameras. It was a pretty crazy shoot so yes there is some out of focus shots and camera issues but overall the stuff looks amazing!

Shot at Pelican Products "Daves Garage" in LA
Edited at Vuze and On Set.
Graded at Plaster City on a Scratch in 4k

Here are the links to the footage,

http://www.vuze.com/channel/gibcor

Enjoy!


Dane Brehm
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San Francisco,CA
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#2 Tom Lowe

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 02:08 PM

Cool... I got super-fast download speeds on Vuze.

The picture quality looks fantastic. I think it's fair to say that this stuff at 1080p compares well with George Lucas's stuff shot 444 on the F950 for Sith. It looks similar to Genesis or Viper footage, which is a great thing considering that the camera is so damn inexpensive. Also, the power of RAW is another factor. I never, ever shoot JPEG anymore on my DLSR, and I cannot imagine going back to "burned in" JPEG shooting after having the power of RAW.

Only comment is that there appears to be a ton of missed focused shots in that longer clip where the motorcycles pull up.
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#3 Dane Brehm

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 02:22 PM

Only comment is that there appears to be a ton of missed focused shots in that longer clip where the motorcycles pull up.
[/quote]

We had an actioncam on set and no Follow Focus or ND for it so we set hyperfocal then shot, so it is out of focus.....The overhead shots the Op didn't even have a monitor or a LCD he shot "blind".

I agree RAW 4k files are the way of the future.....very exciting times we live in.


Dane Brehm
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#4 Tom Lowe

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 02:41 PM

Only comment is that there appears to be a ton of missed focused shots in that longer clip where the motorcycles pull up.


We had an actioncam on set and no Follow Focus or ND for it so we set hyperfocal then shot, so it is out of focus.....The overhead shots the Op didn't even have a monitor or a LCD he shot "blind".

I agree RAW 4k files are the way of the future.....very exciting times we live in.


Dane Brehm
1st AC / DAS
San Francisco,CA


I'd like to see some shots not so stylized in terms of the color grading. I want to see some saturated shots.
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#5 Jamie Metzger

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 04:01 PM

Thank you for sharing Dane.

Don't forget to show/tell me how I can learn more, and get my hands on the RED asap.
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#6 Dane Brehm

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 05:09 PM

Don't forget to show/tell me how I can learn more, and get my hands on the RED asap.
[/quote]

Jamie since your local I could help you out but I recommend you start with downloading the RED manual ( build 13) from www.red.com. Videofax has their RED camera in and I'm sure I could get you in for a demo. I will be holding a demo soon at the Academy of Art Film department for interested parties to check out.

dane brehm
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#7 Scott Fritzshall

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 06:05 PM

www.fxphd.com is running two classes this semester about using the Red camera in production. They're just a few weeks into the current semester so it's not too late to sign up for it.
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#8 Max Jacoby

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 08:56 PM

Also, the power of RAW is another factor.

RAW?

As in uncompressed? ;)
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#9 Dane Brehm

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 09:32 PM

RAW?

As in uncompressed? ;)


As in REDCODE vs Full 12 bit RAW or RAW as in R3d?

I think the best part of shooting RAW (REDCODE) is the metadata attached to the redcode RAW which will be nice for VFX when the S4i component is enabled. REDCINEs 4K redcode playback is still an issue on anything but a tricked out MACPRO.

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#10 Mitch Gross

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 10:34 PM

Not uncompressed, but wavelet compressed. If you want uncompressed RAW, go for the Phantom HD.
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#11 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 03:16 AM

Videofax has their RED camera in and I'm sure I could get you in for a demo.


Oh nice, I had no idea they were getting one too. I'd also like to be contacted if a demo is held there :)
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#12 Max Jacoby

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 03:37 AM

As in REDCODE vs Full 12 bit RAW or RAW as in R3d?

The Red does not output RAW, but REDCODE RAW, a heavily compressed format. There's quite a difference between the two.
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#13 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 04:19 AM

It is RAW, by the generally understood meaning of RAW:
http://en.wikipedia....aw_image_format

RAW as in a Bayer image that has not been processed into a viewable RGB color image. Whether or not is is compressed is another issue, but it doesn't particularly have anything to do with the whole concept of RAW-to-RGB. However, calling it RAW REDCODE or REDCODE RAW, whatever, is a good reminder that this is a wavelet-compressed RAW file.

What's more misleading is when people use the term RAW to describe the 10-bit LOG 4:4:4 signal from a Viper, or an F23 recording that has not gone through color-correction.
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#14 Chris Walters

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:48 AM

I actually was a 1st AC for a USC graduate project that shot with the red and I'm still riding the fence if I like the camera. It still has a lot of things to work out, but they are mostly convenience problems. I was pulling focus blind which wasn't all that terrible because I have a good judgement on distance but its still a little scary not being able to see if my marks are all correct. I had a lot of fun configuring the body, battery, and hard drive to make it easy on the steady cam op. Another problem is the battery life, its basically a computer it sucks the battery dry and make sure you have two chargers. Even though each charger holds two batteries and we had four fresh ones at the start of the day we ended up on AC power the last hour or so of each day. Which you really need PAs to wrangle the charger and all the other cables coming out of this thing. I also don't like the mini bnc only because they break really easily. The steady cam op rested his rig on his shoulder and the cable got stuck on it and he was barely lifting it up so I could release it and it just snapped. I'm disappointed there is no view finder yet I guess thats in the works. But the images are really nice. Still looks HD crisp to me which I'm not a big fan of, but really easy setting adjustments, playback and very wide latitude make it a nice choice for low budget digital features. Just wait a few more updates and it should be a major player.

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#15 Dane Brehm

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 12:50 PM

It is RAW, by the generally understood meaning of RAW:
http://en.wikipedia....aw_image_format

RAW as in a Bayer image that has not been processed into a viewable RGB color image. Whether or not is is compressed is another issue, but it doesn't particularly have anything to do with the whole concept of RAW-to-RGB. However, calling it RAW REDCODE or REDCODE RAW, whatever, is a good reminder that this is a wavelet-compressed RAW file.


When in doubt ask Dave Mullen, the Obi One of Cinematography....

Videofax's camera isn't for rent yet as it is currently being tested but we'll most likely have a demo at Academy of Art University sometime on a weekend. If anyone's close to SF and is interested in attending please PM me so I can add you to the email list.

Fire Dancers and LA Models clips later this week.......
Olga_OrCream3.jpg
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#16 Dane Brehm

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 06:56 PM

We posted some new fire dancer footage today in 2k, yeah thats 2K with 2 and a K resolution. We posted a RAW vs REDCINE comparison for folks who want to see the difference.

www.vuze.com/channel/gibcor

Fire Dancers in 2k (2048x1152)
http://www.vuze.com/...QNRLBFFPVA.html

Enjoy!
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#17 Jaron Berman

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 01:19 AM

Thank you for posting links to the footage, good to see side-by-side outputs.

One quick nitpick - there's not gate, so check for DUST ON THE SENSOR!!! The absolute first thing I saw, before even looking at the beauty of the footage was that one of the cameras had dust EVERYWHERE! Yes, it was just a test, and yes, the olpf is now in a different spot, but it's one of those things... something new to look out for, something very distracting if missed.


But besides that, the images were nice, though from the side-by-side raw vs. graded, it appeared like a lot of highlight info was lost to get the skintones to expose correctly. Was that a creative decision, an accidental mis-rating of the camera's sensitivity, or the state of the camera at the time of the tests? or just the compression to get it online? I know that new builds are coming out by the minute, but I am very curious because I hadn't seen this in other, more controlled footage I've been looking at.
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#18 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 02:06 AM

If you have haven't already heard of the RED Digital 4K Camera than listen up. You can see cool, real world test footage on www.vuze.com


RED? What's that? Don't confuse me here on a themed forum like this, please. I am obviously too sclerotic for that.

By the way, did you know that 'lard' refers to pig fat in both its rendered and unrendered form? And that Bayer is a major seller of it via its Healthfood division? Finally: would 'unrendered' qualify as "raw"?

At least your post made me see The Difference. Thanks for that.
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#19 John Holland

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 01:32 PM

I had the chance to play with a couple of Reds at an exhibition in London last week ,iam sure in time it will a great camera/system but not yet for many reasons.
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#20 Dane Brehm

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 04:29 PM

Thank you for posting links to the footage, good to see side-by-side outputs.

One quick nitpick - there's not gate, so check for DUST ON THE SENSOR!!! The absolute first thing I saw, before even looking at the beauty of the footage was that one of the cameras had dust EVERYWHERE! Yes, it was just a test, and yes, the olpf is now in a different spot, but it's one of those things... something new to look out for, something very distracting if missed.


But besides that, the images were nice, though from the side-by-side raw vs. graded, it appeared like a lot of highlight info was lost to get the skintones to expose correctly.


Having Dust on the Sensor drove me nuts because as a AC this is one of the first things I do is CHECK the GATE. I was only on 1 of the 4 camera's whizzing around a real cluster fuc. I believe the actioncam had the dust issue primarily as we were more concerned with getting it mounted on the actioncam with the battery literaly taped to the camera. see below...

About the Skin tones ,I didn't do the post I'll have to get the colorist to chime in to answer those questions but my guess is we used tungsten lights on a daylight balanced chip so skintones might have shifted and this is pre-enable black balance beta RED.

I think the newer builds are better but I've found there is a color shift when I've shot some gray scale chart. very odd.

If you have the capability to use a Scratch system paired with a experienced DP then that produces amazing results.

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