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When nobody on set speaks up


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#1 Tim O'Connor

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 06:41 PM

http://sports.yahoo....g...p&type=lgns
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#2 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 06 March 2008 - 09:58 PM

http://sports.yahoo....g...p&type=lgns


Yeah, how many times have we seen dangerous behaviour as crew members and not spoken up?

Part of it, is this mentality of "getting the shot." And acting as if getting the shot is more important than life or limb.

I have not worked on a show where someone has been seriously hurt, or worse, died. Just a couple of stabbed people once and a gaffer who had to undergo surgery for busting his knee while trying to help move the motion control crane with very few poeple helping out.

But there have been a lot of close calls and I have seen DP's and key grips who have stopped working together as a result of near misses.

When the safety of others is less important than the actual production, then I know it is time for me to move on to a different show. But I have to admit sometimes I am not very vocal when I see potentially hazardous conditions, when I really should be.
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#3 Christopher Santucci

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 02:14 AM

http://sports.yahoo....g...p&type=lgns



Yeah, it's a little different when celebrities as opposed to the regular folks do questionable stuff isn't it? I was on a feature once with a B list actor who unbeknownst to me was manhandling female interns and PAs to the point where one intern quit and went home in tears. The actor was known for that type of behavior and was never dealt with as he should have been either during or after.

If I had been one of the 15 people who stood there and watched that idiot golfer fire golf balls at a bird, I don't think I would have cared about losing work for standing up to him.

Edited by Christopher Santucci, 07 March 2008 - 02:14 AM.

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#4 Tim O'Connor

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 09:45 AM

I wonder if it's more likely that any of the same people would have spoken up on a smaller crew. People are afraid of the
celebrity and afraid of being the only one in a group to take a stand.
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#5 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 02:06 PM

I wouldn't exactly call a 3 year veteran who's on the Nationwide Tour a "celebrity"
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#6 Tim O'Connor

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 04:10 PM

I wouldn't exactly call a 3 year veteran who's on the Nationwide Tour a "celebrity"


Good point. Why did people just stand there? It's one thing to shoo away a noisy animal. From this story,
the report strongly indicates that he had no qualms about killing the bird and in fact seemed to treat it as an example of his
golf prowess.
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#7 Freya Black

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 09:23 PM

Good point. Why did people just stand there? It's one thing to shoo away a noisy animal. From this story,
the report strongly indicates that he had no qualms about killing the bird and in fact seemed to treat it as an example of his
golf prowess.


Me neither, never heard of the guy, tho that's probably true of a lot of genuine celebrities too in my case. Just people to me.

Tim, I think people act very different in groups. This goes triple if there is some kind of economic factor involved, then their internal moral system seems to get turned off and they will just go along with whatever, or at least that is the way of things these days. Most people are scared to say anything. As often as not in case of what people might think of them! :(

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#8 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 10:02 PM

I think this is very specifically a film industry thing. Never has there been an atmosphere where dissent - even discussion - is less tolerated. It's worse than the military.
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#9 Dan Goulder

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 11:56 PM

The sad thing is... this guy's supposed to be a PGA pro golfer... and it's the only birdie he got all day.
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#10 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 01:56 AM

The sad thing is... this guy's supposed to be a PGA pro golfer... and it's the only birdie he got all day.


Badum bum!
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#11 Brad Grimmett

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 04:52 AM

I wonder if it's more likely that any of the same people would have spoken up on a smaller crew. People are afraid of the
celebrity and afraid of being the only one in a group to take a stand.

I'm sure the crew was very small. It wasn't exactly a big show they were working on.
Just remember that the story said he got in his golf cart and drove closer to the bird. I'm guessing he was alone when he did this, and not within earshot of the crew. The crew probably had no idea he was trying to hit the bird until after he had done it. I don't think it's fair to implicate the crew in this case. It seems cut and dried when you read about it in an article, but I doubt it was so cut and dried when the event actually occurred. Just my thoughts...
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#12 Freya Black

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 06:15 AM

I'm sure the crew was very small. It wasn't exactly a big show they were working on.
Just remember that the story said he got in his golf cart and drove closer to the bird. I'm guessing he was alone when he did this, and not within earshot of the crew. The crew probably had no idea he was trying to hit the bird until after he had done it. I don't think it's fair to implicate the crew in this case. It seems cut and dried when you read about it in an article, but I doubt it was so cut and dried when the event actually occurred. Just my thoughts...


Well this is really interesting. The story that is linked to has been edited in a big way.
The original story includes the words "many later regretted it", as in the title. It specifically says that the crew really regretted that they stood there and said nothing while this went on. We don't have to blame them because they blame themselves, they know that they should have spoken out but they didn't until it was too late.

The original story also has much of the golf player saying how he is really an animal lover! :)
This is of course exactly the kind of stuff that bullies say when they get caught out on something.
The golfer makes an intresting point too, which is there is a good chance of him missing the bird as he did time and time again. What if he had never managed to kill it. Would it have been okay then like this golfer seems to suggest? Does it only matter about bullying when it finally leads to a death?

What is intresting about this new story is that when it all goes bad it appears that it is the sound recordist who is first to speak up. Yes that person right at the bottom that nobody pays much attention to and just gets on with trying to do a good job. In a way it is easier for them as they aren't quite so bound up in the structure and hierachy.

I can understand that many of you can't comprehend that this could have really happened and want to find some excuse or something for the crew, who are both victims and guilty in the whole affair, but this stuff happens all the time. Often it's even more shocking when it happens in real life because you know the people and they are lovely people and you can't believe they didn't question things more and got so caught up in it all.

I really recommend you watch the film "World of Glory" by Roy Anderson, a story about someone who doesn't speak up, and for who, perhaps by the time the film has even started, it is too late for him to do so. It's a black comedy but I've sat in a room with a whole bunch of people watching it and people only laugh nervously because it's all a bit too close to home.

It's a completely fantastic film that is available on the European short films DVD. You may have to mess about a bit to get the subtitles to work tho, although the first time I saw it without subtitles I could still guess what he was saying at the end.

There is often a bad penalty for speaking out. However just remember there is often a worse one for saying nothing.

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Freya

Edited by Freya Black, 08 March 2008 - 06:17 AM.

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#13 Christopher Santucci

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 12:31 PM

I wouldn't exactly call a 3 year veteran who's on the Nationwide Tour a "celebrity"



Celebrity enough for the national media apparently...

Edited by Christopher Santucci, 08 March 2008 - 12:35 PM.

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#14 Brad Grimmett

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 07:44 AM

I can understand that many of you can't comprehend that this could have really happened and want to find some excuse or something for the crew, who are both victims and guilty in the whole affair, but this stuff happens all the time.
love

Freya

People do nasty things all the time, so comprehending that this really happened is easy. It's certainly not in the top one million on the list of the worst things than a human being has ever done. It sucks, but it's true.
I'm not trying to find an excuse, I'm just looking at the situation from a realistic point of view. Should we all be expected to constantly read everyones mind so that we can stop them from doing stupid and cruel things?
The crew are neither victims OR guilty of anything. They didn't do anything wrong. The moron swinging the golf club is the only one at fault.
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#15 Brad Grimmett

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 07:48 AM

Celebrity enough for the national media apparently...

Sure, he just had to kill a bird with a golf shot to get that national media attention. As a non-lethal golfer he was a non story.
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#16 Freya Black

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 08:32 AM

People do nasty things all the time, so comprehending that this really happened is easy. It's certainly not in the top one million on the list of the worst things than a human being has ever done. It sucks, but it's true.
I'm not trying to find an excuse, I'm just looking at the situation from a realistic point of view. Should we all be expected to constantly read everyones mind so that we can stop them from doing stupid and cruel things?
The crew are neither victims OR guilty of anything. They didn't do anything wrong. The moron swinging the golf club is the only one at fault.


Well I guess the crew felt that they could have said something before or tried to stop things from happening.

I'm actually very sympathetic to the crew as I suspect it was the crew who got really upset about what happened and made an issue out of it. It's intresting that the sporting bodies etc don't seem to give a monkeys and of course there are people who chase and kill wildlife wildlife for fun anyway. From this point of view the fact that the crew were upset about what happened shows that they are people who actually care in a society that often doesn't.

Certainly the crew didn't do anything wrong, thats for sure, so maybe guilty is the wrong word, as they are perhaps only guilty of not doing anything. I feel they are certainly victims in that they have been put into some awful situation by some psycho and now feel really bad about what happened. However perhaps these are the wrong words. In which case I'm not sure what the right ones would be however.

I guess the issue is that the crew feel responsible and that they could have done something and didn't. Please note here that responsibility is not the same thing as being at fault. Theres been a couple of times in my life when I've had a hard time explaining this to people. As an example, George Bush was the person responsible for the situation in New Orleans. It wasn't actually directly his fault (it was the weather etc) but it was his responsibility, and he failed really, really badly in that responsibility.

I've been through a lot of really terrible stuff in my own life recently and I feel that some of the things I have been through I actually deserved. Not because of anything I had done but because of the things I didn't do in my life. I could have done more to try and make a difference, but I didn't, instead I stopped to eat the berrys like the girl in Pans Labarynth.

The crew feel responsible and that they could have done more to make a difference too, and who am I to argue with them. I think it's good that they feel a responsibility both for their actions and for their inaction.
Personally it makes me feel very well dispossesed towards them as so many people try to justify things to themselves after the event.

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#17 Freya Black

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 08:42 AM

People do nasty things all the time, so comprehending that this really happened is easy. It's certainly not in the top one million on the list of the worst things than a human being has ever done. It sucks, but it's true.
I'm not trying to find an excuse, I'm just looking at the situation from a realistic point of view. Should we all be expected to constantly read everyones mind so that we can stop them from doing stupid and cruel things?
The crew are neither victims OR guilty of anything. They didn't do anything wrong. The moron swinging the golf club is the only one at fault.


I don't mean comprehending that some psycho was cruelly lobbing golf balls at an animal but more that while he was doing it, the crew did nothing to stop him. If we know that people are doing stupid and cruel things then maybe we should try and stop them before it's too late.

Also we can't read someones mind, but we can ask them what they are thinking if they appear to be doing questionable things, instead of assuming one way or another.

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Freya
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#18 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 08:41 PM

The problem with confronting the celebrity is the consequences. First off, a "nobody" publicly admonishing a celebrity is not an intelligent thing to do. Secondly, it could be argued that if the ball landed close enough to the bird that the bird would "get it" and fly away and the problem would be solved.

It might have been useful to find out why the bird was gawking incessantly, and I'm assuming that was what infuriated the golfer. Perhaps the crew was near the birds nest and the bird was sending out it's own form of a warning. This kind of situation should have resulted in a call to the groundskeeper to get their input on how to proceed. That's something a crew member, the A.D., anyone who was concerned, could have done without showing up the celebrity while perhaps preventing the outcome that did occur.
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