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#1 Jim Jannard

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 03:55 AM

There are at least 10 reasons why NOT to get near a RED camera.

1. Phil Rhodes says that it is grotesquely incompetent.
2. Phil is certain that the 4K resolution is really less than 2K.
3. Max agrees with everything Phil says.
4. Dynamic range is really only 6 stops according to someone.
5. The sensor is not better than a cell phone... according to Phil.
6. The UI is on the back. Can't shoot backed up to a wall.
7. The skew of any CMOS just isn't acceptable.
8. PJ, SS, DD, MA, SB, and 800 others have no fu$king clue what they are doing.
9. The RED 18-50mm zoom has got to be a re-housed Sigma.
10. Lab tests have shown that the RED ONE is associated with leprosy.

Oh, I forgot. 11. You hate RED's marketing.

I know the list should be much longer. If you believe any of these to be true or relevant, you should absolutely stay away from RED at all costs.

Jim
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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 08:19 AM

I personally got a laugh out of #10. In truth, though; I'm not sure that such a tone will persuade people in either camp. To be fair, some of these criticisms have been what the company has asked for by wanting customer feedback.
I try not to get involved in the debates over red good/bad, but I can say at least, that as the figure-head of a company, there should be a certain bit of decorum on your part. That's just my opinion, of course. And when you read this, you probably won't care too much of, or for it. Point being is that whatever you say is what your company and your product says. And, in this post, the product has basically said a big F-u to the discussions of the pros and cons of the camera on this site.
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#3 Jérôme Keller

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 08:39 AM

Jim, this is pathetic.
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#4 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 08:40 AM

It is.

What I don't understand is why he cares. I can't stop him becoming even more of a multi billionaire than he already is. I can't stop him selling his camera. I have no idea why he gives my opinions a second thought.
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#5 Keith Mottram

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 10:20 AM

Okay so I haven't posted for a while, been busy with 'A' work and 'B' shitty baby nappies. but when i saw this i had to put fingers to keys. Jim, how pissed were you when you wrote that? Looking at the list I just wasn't sure which you were having a laugh with and which you weren't, I am consequently now worried about testing a red in case it gives me leprosy. And number 8 is a mystery who are the other 800 acronyms? I assume PJ is the guy who played crocodile dundee and DD is a porn star, but why on earth would you want to associate yourself with Nazis? I mean I know they had great scientists and were very technologically advanced but still... oh and last thing I heard the 18-50 was a rehoused cola bottle.

Edited by Keith Mottram, 10 March 2008 - 10:21 AM.

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#6 Michael Peploe

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 10:45 AM

I'll tell you Phil. Because if someone posts that a newly released pro camera is not better than a cell phone camera, the person that built that cam, billionaire or not, has a responsibility and a duty to post back and protect his position. If it was anyone of us in the same situation we would post a rebuttal too.

Lets be honest, you knew posting that cell phone quote had to be answered and you also knew that even if the camera isn't up to YOUR level of satisfaction, that quote was far beyond any honest assessment of the cam. You're getting off stirring the pot.

Its a no win for Jannard with you. He posts: you bash wondering why he's paying attention to you. He doesn't post: he's admitting by silence that you are correct or ducking the truth.

I truly wonder what riches we would have if people like you, who seem to have a great deal of knowledge, offered it to progress forward instead of moving further into the darkness to satiate their confusing vendetta.
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#7 Keith Mottram

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 10:56 AM

man I feel like such an idiot, pj was of course the director of murials wedding, getting my hogans confused...
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#8 Andreas Wessberg FSF

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:13 AM

Please, everybody. cant we just stop all this bullshit.
I come to this site to read and learn and sometimes reply when I have something of value to say or ask.
i´m so tired of all this nonsens, if red is the solution to all our problems or just a piece of junk. Good informative
posts get lost in all the bullshit.

I will before my next feature(35mm) this summer do a short on red, and I´m really exited to try it and see what it can do.
After that i can be a part of this red discussion. all for now.

andreas
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#9 Keith Walters

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 05:53 PM

There are at least 10 reasons why NOT to get near a RED camera....
...I know the list should be much longer. If you believe any of these to be true or relevant, you should absolutely stay away from RED at all costs.

Jim

11. It's likely to be surrounded by RED Fanboys:-)...
but seriously
51. No capacity for real time HD SDI 1920 x 1080 capability, which would slaughter the opposition in the sitcom market.
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#10 Mark Williams

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 06:03 PM

Have I missed something here? Didnt crossing the line cross a new benchmark in Digital video? Certainly was the best look I have seen from a video Camera?
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#11 Thomas James

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 07:43 PM

All of this reminds me of synthetic oil marketing. When synthetic oils were first introduced mechanics railed against the product and wrote factory technical service bullletins claiming that synthetic oil was nothing but an expensive snake oil that would ruin your engine and void out your warranty. Mechanics called synthetic oil a scam and declared that it was marketed by cult leaders and that no oil could possibly last longer than 3000 miles. Mechanics declared that synthetic oil was too thin and totally incompatible with convetional oil and insisted that the product would eat up your engine seals.

The synthetic oil marketers then printed up brochures about the 10 myths of synthetic oil which was a rebuttal to each of the objections of the mechanics.
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#12 Scott Fritzshall

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 08:14 PM

What about:

12. Posts like this, which seem like a pretty strong indicator that this camera is more about egos than anything else to some people.

I've posted like maybe twice ever about this camera, and I'm pretty sure that it was to say what I'm reiterating now: that you're not doing yourself any favors by acting like this. Seriously, how is this supposed to help you? How is this supposed to give me a positive image of the camera? It's very likely that in the next few months I'll be asked whether to recommend this camera for some projects, and the message that I'm getting from you is not that I should evaluate the camera based on its merits, but on the basis of some weird reverse-psychology: that if trolls hate the camera then its merits must be obvious.

It's cool that you're involved with the community, interacting with your customers, and taking advice from them. It really and truly is. But I'm perfectly capable of determining on my own whether someone is trolling or whether they're providing valid criticism. You know as well as I do that your posting here does constitute a component of your marketing strategy, and it's really off-putting, since it places the focus away from the camera itself. What I want to hear is: "Use Red because it does X, Y, and Z," and what you're saying is "Use Red because mean internet trolls hate it and they're dumb." I've been using internet forums for a long time, and I know how to deal with someone like Phil.

It clearly bothers you that people criticize your product, and you clearly have a huge emotional attachment to it. That's fine, it's your baby. But please, keep it to yourself. It comes off as defensive and just gets in the way of what people here want to hear about.
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#13 Adamo P Cultraro

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 09:54 PM

Jannard throws down!

poop!

Good on you Jim. The bashing this cam has received is terrible. And I'm not a fanboy - look at my post history and tell me how many pro (or anti, for that matter) RED posts I've made.

Don't take Phil seriously. The closest he got to a RED was driving by in his car. He's a hater.

If I was you, I'd just respond by stating:

"Yes, but I'm a billionaire"
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#14 Joe Taylor

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 10:58 PM

"Yes, but I'm a billionaire"



Trust me. I use that one all the time and it never works.
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#15 Ruairi Robinson

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Posted 10 March 2008 - 11:34 PM

Trust me. I use that one all the time and it never works.



I'm an Oscar loser!

Ladies, form an orderly queue.

R.
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#16 Carl Brighton

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 05:08 AM

It is.

What I don't understand is why he cares. I can't stop him becoming even more of a multi billionaire than he already is. I can't stop him selling his camera. I have no idea why he gives my opinions a second thought.


I think part of the answer is that deep down he shares the problem that besets most wealthy or famous people, the gnawing suspicion that many if not most of the supposedly "respectful" people who post on Reduser and elsewhere, are really just lapdogs hoping he'll throw them a bone. That they no more respect him than the the pigeons in the park looking for a handout respect you.

Getting respect, pretend or otherwise, from people with either no vested interest in the RED, or the technical or industry background to be aware of its limited potential to advance their own particular interests, is obviously proving much more difficult. (And "vested interest" in my book includes an anxiety not to rock the industry boat, because you never know who you might be working for next).

OK he has a number number of film production "celebrities" on board who are prepared to give the RED a try, but there are an awful lot more who haven't as yet climbed on the bandwagon. (And it's far too early to say how many are going to stay on the bandwagon:-)

I don't think there have ever been any Red skeptics here (including Phil) who have flat out stated that the RED is a totally useless piece of junk, (because it clearly isn't) their derision was (and still is) mostly directed for the totally unrealistic ideas that some people seem to have cultivated, often in total (and painfully obvious) ignorance of the realities of the industry.

Edited by Carl Brighton, 11 March 2008 - 05:11 AM.

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#17 Carl Brighton

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 05:14 AM

Trust me. I use that one all the time and it never works.

What about "I'm an Indie producer with a reservation on RED #4,263" :lol:
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#18 Carl Brighton

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 05:20 AM

I truly wonder what riches we would have if people like you, who seem to have a great deal of knowledge, offered it to progress forward instead of moving further into the darkness to satiate their confusing vendetta.

I truly wonder what riches would be saved if investors listened to people who actually knew what they were talking about, rather than actively seeking out people who only tell them what they want to hear.
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#19 Mark Williams

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 05:57 AM

I think part of the answer is that deep down he shares the problem that besets most wealthy or famous people, the gnawing suspicion that many if not most of the supposedly "respectful" people who post on Reduser and elsewhere, are really just lapdogs hoping he'll throw them a bone. That they no more respect him than the the pigeons in the park looking for a handout respect you.


That happens everywhere you go. The boss is always respected we all look to better ourselves to further our careers or start one. Even those at the top did so and continue to do so Although some get by on sheer talent alone. Although rare.. No one person is better than another but we all of us collectively allow some to be that way. To be paid attention by those at the top can be flattering for minions and is often the source of annoyance by those wanting to live a normal life. Its weird sometimes how we behave but without ambition without hopes what have we got left? We all have our crosses to bear some are more fortunate than others and some should behave more responsibly for the position they have been allowed. We would all like to be liked and apreciated for who we are and to further our life experiences and ambitons and educate all as we go along with the blinkered knowledge we see as the only way to do things. Jim is not likely to throw anyone here any bones only seek to get those who have respect in the community to promote his product. He wouldnt be so silly as to throw them bones because it would be seen as paying them off. Although he could hire directors to test his product who then come under the boss worker doctrine of pleasing the boss. Those bones you speak of are already taken.. Any Billionaire foolish enough to throw a bone would be inundated with requests or crawlers and really its bad enough before throwing any. I dont believe Phil is hoping for a non existant bone. He is smarter than that. I think though and I feel annoyed to. but of course only to my limited understanding and what I can see through my own eyes is annoyance at the myths and untruths surrounding the RED that have made him angry. Again forums like these can press peoples buttons and again I believe people should have a choice about using real names. But that aside I believe your comment about Phil wishing to get a bone is way malicious.

Edited by Mark Williams, 11 March 2008 - 05:58 AM.

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#20 Carl Brighton

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 03:20 PM

But that aside I believe your comment about Phil wishing to get a bone is way malicious.

Mark, could I respectfully suggest you read my posts again, because younever seem to understand anything I've written.

I never said people like Phil were hoping Jannard would throw them a bone, more that because they don't particularly care one way or the other about the RED, or know it's most unlikely any bones would be thrown their (or anybody else's way), they feel free to say what they actually think.
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