Jump to content


Photo

Aaton Penelope-2


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 Serge Teulon

Serge Teulon
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London UK

Posted 17 March 2008 - 07:09 AM

Was at the BSC show this weekend and came across the Ascent Media stand.
In there they were offering processing for 2 & 3 Perf at the same price as S16.
It left me very interested as I have a couple of projects coming up.

Through speaking to a couple of other people that I came across they're view was that rental houses charge more for 2 & 3 Perf cameras than they do for the standard 4 perf and S16. SO it all evens out!?
But alas! I then stumbled onto a stand that had a prototype of the Aaton Penelope-2(2&3perf), fresh out of France.

Has anyone got any views/experience of this camera? And if you do, did the rental company charge you more than for a standard? (Loyalty deals included)

Cheers
S
  • 0

#2 John Holland

John Holland
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2248 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London England

Posted 17 March 2008 - 07:28 AM

Dont think anyone will have experience with it . I far as i know its not yet available for use .
  • 0

#3 Mitch Gross

Mitch Gross
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2873 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 17 March 2008 - 11:06 AM

The Aaton Penelope is still in prototype and not yet available for rental. Abel has the Aaton 35-3 in both 4-perf and 3-perf, and we charge the same price for either camera.
  • 0

#4 Delorme Jean-Marie

Delorme Jean-Marie
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 513 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • paris, france

Posted 14 September 2008 - 04:11 PM

http://onirisproduct...n-Penelope.html

in french
  • 0

#5 Stephen Williams

Stephen Williams
  • Sustaining Members
  • 4708 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Europe

Posted 14 September 2008 - 04:26 PM

http://onirisproduct...n-Penelope.html

in french


Looked like a product at IBC.

Stephen
  • 0

#6 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 14 September 2008 - 09:57 PM

I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, I want...
  • 0

#7 Mike Simpson

Mike Simpson
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 113 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Austin

Posted 15 September 2008 - 12:32 AM

Was at the BSC show this weekend and came across the Ascent Media stand.
In there they were offering processing for 2 & 3 Perf at the same price as S16.
It left me very interested as I have a couple of projects coming up.

Through speaking to a couple of other people that I came across they're view was that rental houses charge more for 2 & 3 Perf cameras than they do for the standard 4 perf and S16. SO it all evens out!?
But alas! I then stumbled onto a stand that had a prototype of the Aaton Penelope-2(2&3perf), fresh out of France.

Has anyone got any views/experience of this camera? And if you do, did the rental company charge you more than for a standard? (Loyalty deals included)

Cheers
S


so they process 2 and 3 perf for cheaper than 4? Is this pretty standard?
  • 0

#8 Delorme Jean-Marie

Delorme Jean-Marie
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 513 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • paris, france

Posted 29 September 2008 - 09:39 AM

so they process 2 and 3 perf for cheaper than 4? Is this pretty standard?


they process for the same price but you save 25% in 3 perf and 50% in 2 perf on your processing budget and film stock!!!!!
  • 0

#9 Tebbe Schoeningh

Tebbe Schoeningh
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Buenos Aires, Berlin

Posted 29 September 2008 - 10:20 AM

This is pretty standard because you pay per meter.
  • 0

#10 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 29 September 2008 - 10:32 AM

Hello Delorme,

I did not quite understand your post. Do they charge processing by the length in France? Of course, it's feet here. What is the metric standard length of charge there? Meters? Since it is by the length here, 2-perf is half the lab and stock in cost compared to 4-perf.

Since scans are charged by the frame, the costs are the same as 4-perf. Only the number of drives needed due to data size is smaller. Telecine ends up being the same costs as well since that is most often charged in time units. I think that these transfer factors are some of the principle reasons why 2-perf has not been rapidly embraced. There are so many good reasons to shoot 2-perf. While DI is what makes the format attractive. At the same time, DI costs are what knock 2-perf out of the running.

The aggravating thing is a matter of budgets. If your production is so lean that 2-perf looks really good as an option, then you're probably too broke to pay for the DI. Then, what's the point of 2-perf? If you have the money to go DI, then you probably have enough to shoot in 4-perf and squeezers.

I love 2-perf. I think it's brilliant for broke producers like me. But, I seem to be part of a shrinking group. Maybe with the economy getting scarier, folks will re-assess the merits of 2-perf.
  • 0

#11 Serge Teulon

Serge Teulon
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London UK

Posted 29 September 2008 - 10:51 AM

so they process 2 and 3 perf for cheaper than 4? Is this pretty standard?



Although 2 & 3 perf is cheaper than 4perf, I don't think it is as cheap as S16.

Hey Mike - They are offering 2&3 perf at the same price as S16. I believe that this is now standard for them.
  • 0

#12 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 29 September 2008 - 10:55 AM

Hey Serge,

A few of us did a street level cost analysis between 2-perf 35mm and S16mm. It will take me a while to find the old thread. I think you might be aghast to find 2-perf can be cheaper than S16.
  • 0

#13 Saul Rodgar

Saul Rodgar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1682 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 29 September 2008 - 11:14 AM

Although 2 & 3 perf is cheaper than 4perf, I don't think it is as cheap as S16.

Hey Mike - They are offering 2&3 perf at the same price as S16. I believe that this is now standard for them.


In other words: 2 perf 35mm lets you shoot the same amount of film -in feet/ meters- than S16. So it is cheaper to shoot 2perf 35mm than 3 or 4 perf 35mm. But because it is 35mm after all, it still is more expensive to buy (raw stock) than S16.

The lab that I use (Cinemalab in CO) has charged the same for 16mm or 35 mm processing for at least 4 or 5 years.

Edited by Saul Rodgar, 29 September 2008 - 11:17 AM.

  • 0

#14 Tebbe Schoeningh

Tebbe Schoeningh
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Buenos Aires, Berlin

Posted 29 September 2008 - 11:14 AM

Hello Delorme,

I did not quite understand your post. Do they charge processing by the length in France? Of course, it's feet here. What is the metric standard length of charge there? Meters? Since it is by the length here, 2-perf is half the lab and stock in cost compared to 4-perf.


The standard scale for processing here in Argentina is per meter and at the biggest lab here (Cinecolor) the charge for processing a meter of S35 and S16 is exactly the same: 1,40 US$ / m

I don´t know if 2-perf S35 could be cheaper than S16 because the rolls are signifcantly more expensive (250 US$ vs. 160 US$) but nevertheless 2-perf seems to be a perfect option to cut down material and processing costs. It could be even an alternative for HD because really good HD equipment is really expensive too, If you calculate renting costs for an Arri D21, HD-monitors, maybe backup to HDCAM tape and the HD-technician, S35 2-perf is 5-10% cheaper than HD!

And to me it seems a waste of money and resources that there are several films shot on 4-perf S35 which are later cropped in postproduction to emulate a cinemascopic look. They did so with "Leonera" here (Pablo Trapero - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1022606/ - Lab Cinecolor and DI Cinecolor Digital) I suppose that they did´nt have the 2-perf option because as far as I know there are no cameras available for rent on the local market (Argentinians who are reading this: please correct me if there are!). So the Aaton Penelope-2 would be highly welcome here ;)
  • 0

#15 Serge Teulon

Serge Teulon
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London UK

Posted 29 September 2008 - 11:23 AM

In other words: 2 perf 35mm lets you shoot the same amount of film -in feet/ meters- than S16. So it is cheaper to shoot 2perf 35mm than 3 or 4 perf 35mm. But because it is 35mm after all, it still is more expensive to buy (raw stock) than S16.

The lab that I use (Cinemalab in CO) has charged the same for 16mm or 35 mm processing for at least 4 or 5 years.



That's exactly it.

Interesting that your Lab has done that for a while....I've found that here in the UK it has, in the past, happened in a loyalty situation.

Cheers

Edited by Serge Teulon, 29 September 2008 - 11:27 AM.

  • 0

#16 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 29 September 2008 - 11:40 AM

Hey Fellas,

I can't find the old thread. What are you paying for 16mm neg, either Fuji or Kodak? What are you paying for 16mm processing?

Give me both high and low numbers and under what circumstances youcan get them. Then I'll do some math with them in comparison with 2-perf. I promise, I'll take into account the low availability of short ends outside of the USA.
  • 0

#17 Tebbe Schoeningh

Tebbe Schoeningh
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Buenos Aires, Berlin

Posted 29 September 2008 - 11:45 AM

I wrote an essay about HD vs Film for filmschool and I included a part about S35 2-perf. I can send the pdf-file by mail to anyone who wants it and knows spanish.
  • 0

#18 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 29 September 2008 - 12:39 PM

Argentina price comparison:

16mm stock = $.402/ft
35mm stock = $.634/ft

16mm = 40 frames/ft
35mm, 2-perf = 32 frames/ft

16mm and 35mm processing = .43/ft

16mm stock&lab per frame = $.0208
2-P, 35mm stock&lab per frame = $.03325

Freya brought to my attention a while back that 2-perf makes more sense in America than her home, England. They, practically, can't get short ends in the UK. As well, UK lab costs are higher since the volume of labwork is so much lower there compared to the US.

So, in your country, Tebbe, it looks like S16 is noticeably cheaper than 2-perf. However, if you calculate the real estate-to-cost ratio, 2-perf, 35mm comes out to a better value, even for you. I guess the next consideration would be your local telecine, datacine, and scan cost ratios between S16 and 2-perf.

2-perf looks hugely better in the USA. Because of volume differences, 35mm is often cheaper to process by the foot than 16mm. Likewise, we shoot enough 35 here that short ends are still viable in availability and cost. A typical cost consideration for a 2-perf producer here is called a "twelve-twelve" deal. This means that short ends are .12/ft and lab is .12/ft. The most murderously cheap 2-perf deal I have ever seen was a "five-eight" deal. But, that was a few years ago and was part of a quirk in the market that knocked prices down temporarily. With the economy going sour, there's no way to anticipate what prices will do, now.

Even so, it's still cheaper in this country to shoot 2-perf than S16. I guess it would be different if 16mm could be found in short ends. But most folks are obliged to shoot 16mm at Kodak and Fuji, list price or only slightly cheaper.

The great thing about short ends is that they are wickedly cheap. They are useless for 4-perf producers. But, for us 2-perfers a 200ft roll lasts 4 minutes, 22 seconds in run time.

It might be reasonable to calculate the shipping both ways (three trips total) from where you live to a short ends dealer/lab here in the states. Things in the US are pretty cheap for foreigners these days because the US$ is still in pretty bad shape. I'd be interested in hearing how those shipping costs worked out for you and your budgets.
  • 0

#19 Tebbe Schoeningh

Tebbe Schoeningh
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 117 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Buenos Aires, Berlin

Posted 29 September 2008 - 01:20 PM

Another price to consider is the rent of S35 2-perf equipment compared to S16 equipment. Camaras y luces, the biggest rental house in Argentina rents out it´s 35mm cameras from 1000 to 2000 US $ per day, while a SR II is at 600 US $ and a 416 at 950 US $. I suppose that a brand new Aatonn Penelope would be around 1500 per day. Certainly I think that S35 2-perf might be an option for productions which are considering 35 3- or 4 perf or even HD as their option but not for those who are shooting on S16.
  • 0

#20 Delorme Jean-Marie

Delorme Jean-Marie
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 513 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • paris, france

Posted 29 September 2008 - 02:28 PM

thx tebbe for your comment.
the money aspect is very important but also the quality.
if you'r back in the 35mm world you avoid the S16 such a grain and dust. processing S16 is harder than 35.

it funny to say so but for certain production such as low budget comercials or comercial for the web 2 perf 35 is a serious alternativ.


but tebbe shows an important point the rental price of the camera boddy.
on this tight competition between 35 2perf, S16 and HD this rental price can be the lock or the key tto the choice. an aaton understood it i heard for rental prices close to the S16 budget

i recently shot a comercial in the dersert 55°C in SR3 whith 35 primos for a smaller budget than HD.
every electronical on set died because of the heat i was glad to shoot Fuji 250D stock to hold the heat and the 4 and a half stops of contrast ratio.
  • 0


Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Rig Wheels Passport

Visual Products

rebotnix Technologies

Opal

The Slider

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Paralinx LLC

Aerial Filmworks

Abel Cine

Wooden Camera

Ritter Battery

FJS International, LLC

CineLab

Glidecam

Technodolly

Tai Audio

Willys Widgets

Metropolis Post

CineTape

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Glidecam

Metropolis Post

FJS International, LLC

Opal

CineTape

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Technodolly

Aerial Filmworks

rebotnix Technologies

Abel Cine

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Paralinx LLC

Wooden Camera

Visual Products

The Slider

Rig Wheels Passport

Tai Audio

Ritter Battery

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Willys Widgets

CineLab