Shot at the Talyllyn - the world's first preserved steam railway.
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Edited by Ian Cooper, 18 March 2008 - 01:34 PM.
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K3 Film Clip On YouTube
26 replies to this topic
Posted 18 March 2008 - 01:30 PM
Ok, I know it reduces the quality of everything to that of a small cell phone with a thumb print on the lens, but if you fancy seeing another snipette of something shot with a K3, then I've posted a short sequence.
Shot at the Talyllyn - the world's first preserved steam railway.
<< Talyllyn Railway Journey >>
Edited by Ian Cooper, 18 March 2008 - 01:34 PM.
Posted 18 March 2008 - 04:54 PM
Nice little film. YouTube doesn't do 16mm justice, but I know how nice footage from the k-3 can look. What lens(es) did you use for this? Those were some nice, steady shots with good editing.
I will post my first music video here (K-3) very soon, though I have said that for a few months...
Did you find the cause out the fogging problem yet?
Posted 19 March 2008 - 03:38 AM
This is only the second time I've done something seriously with moving pictures, even then these shots have been done as part of a larger project, I just put these bits together to show a friend. The minimum order for the lab is 400ft, so these scenes are just a small sample of the footage shot.
The first 'film' I made was some B&W super-8 of a steam roller. That also turned out quite nicely - but I don't have full clearance for the music it's set to for it to be put on the internet, and I didn't record sound at the time for that exercise either.
For that, it was all with the standard Meteor zoom.
I decided to get the bayonet mount version of the camera, not only does it make swapping the lens a bit quicker, it also gave the option of the 12.5mm "wide angle" (£30). Coming from a medium format stills background I must admit the field of view from 16mm 'standard' and 'wide angle' lenses isn't what I'm used to calling 'wide-angle', but it's just a different (more restricted) way of looking at the world. The clips I've seen online from the 8mm Pelang showed a fair bit of distortion, which I wouldn't be happy with, so the bayonet 12.5mm was the only other (affordable) option. I don't have much use for long focal length lenses, my subject matter usually calls for standard or wide.
I'd be interested to see it.
Still no breakthrough. I'll try taping up the counter winder and door latch next time and see if it solves the problem.
As the fog is so predicable, it won't be a huge problem to roll the camera 1 second earlier than planned, and add an extra second at the end. It's just not ideal.
As I can't claim 'student' status, and it's just a hobby, I'm paying full price for everything. As a result I wasn't letting the camera roll any longer than necessary. The problem has arisen where 5 seconds is more than long enough for a nameplate or some other fairly stationary scene, but by the time you've chopped the beginning and end off, 3 seconds doesn't leave must room for 'creative choice' whilst editing!! I've tried just removing the fogged frames, which has worked in some cases, but a lot of the time you can see the jump.
It's all a learning curve!
Posted 19 March 2008 - 11:12 PM
I just got a K-3 and will be testing it soon. Nice shots. It's good to know that the Meteor lens is giving you decent shots. That's encouraging for me. Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing.
Posted 14 April 2008 - 05:52 PM
First of all congratulations for your brilliant shot with Krasnogorsk k3 posted on youtube. I am a Romanian independent filmmaker. Now I am shooting a medium feature artistic film with Sony HD video camera. But, I have also a old soviet camera Krasnogorsk K3 and few short fragments shot with it. I will try to mix with video images in the same final digital format. Looking at your movie on youtube shot at Talyllyn I was wondering:
1. Do you recreated the sound design - sound effects of the train - in the studio? Do you recorded the sound of the train instantly (direct recording), during the shooting. If so, why we are not hearing the well konwn noise from your Krasnogorsk spring.
2. What kind of modification did you made from the clasical type of Krasnogorsk? Lenses, filters, etc..?
3. Counting on your filmmaker experience, could you tell me please what kind of Kodak motion picture (Tungsten or Daily) is better working with Krasnogorsk system of lenses?
Posted 15 April 2008 - 08:20 AM
The standard Meteor lens (nor any other m42 lens) is no friendlier to daylight film stock than tungsten; it comes down to what works best for you & the shoot. The Kodak 50D stock is really great looking on a sunny day... 250D helps on overcast and/or strong shadows. 200T is another great stock outside with a filter. Try a few in the conditions you expect to find out what looks best to you, it should be clear after a test. Don't forget to try some Fuji stocks. Much different look but certainly worthy of consideration.
Posted 15 April 2008 - 09:54 AM
The sound track of the journey film is a combination of ambient sounds dubbed over the picture, together with sound recorded whilst actually filming.
The crossing gates being closed was 'constructed' in the studio from ambient birdsong, and the sound of the crossing latch dropping shut. I didn't have time to set up the sound stuff (or rather I would be in a hurry after stopping the camera to get it all packed up again and rush ahead of the train, so wouldn't have time to pack away sound equipment as well!)
The train going past in the landscape and the final shot of the train arriving in the station were recorded whilst filming (the sound from the final shot was also used when the train arrived at the level crossing)
On the other "Motive Power" clip there's even more of a mixture. Much of it was shot during a photographic charter where the train will do numerous run pasts. Some was recorded whilst filming, some was recorded on a second run past after I'd stopped filming, and one was 'built' in the studio. The side view of the red locomotive going past with the slate trucks was built from 'chuffs' of the train moving slower than it was whilst I was filming it.
All of the closeup views of the steam engines with a hiss in the background is dubbed on sound of a safety valve about to lift. The true sound whilst I was filming was silence, but that doesn't look believable on screen! A gentle hiss of steam in the background seems to 'fit' the picture better than the real audio!
The reason why you can't hear the camera is a combination of microphone positioning, and being outside! I position the microphone as far away, and in front of, the camera as possible. It also means the microphone tends to be closer to what I want to record so the whirr of the camera in the background is much quieter than the subject matter. If I wear headphones and turn the volume up I can hear the camera in the background (especially the clunk as it stops), but I've yet to hear it on the TV at sensible audio levels.
If I had a spare person to help me I'd send them off with the microphone to get it further away still. The focal length of the lens means the subject matter is usually quite a distance from the camera when it fills the frame - my limitation is the length of wire from the mic. back to the recorder positioned near the tripod! I've done quite a bit of work on those two short films since posting them on YouTube to improve the audio and editting. Trying to get a sound track which matches the pictures and transitions smoothly from shot to shot is as interesting as filming the moving pictures themselves. Most of the people I've shown the films to have been shocked to learn how much is dubbed on effects!
The only modification to the camera was to remove the automatic loop-formers, and give it all a good clean & oil. The journey film was done entirely with the standard Meteor zoom. The Motive Power film was all done with the zoom, apart from the shot of Loco number 3 moving backwards towards the evening sun - that was done using the 12.5mm lens you can get for the bayonet mount K3.
I'm afraid I don't exactly have much film maker experience - My only edited together films are the three I've dumped on YouTube! That's it, hopefully I can only get better!
None the less, I agree with Will that the camera won't care about film type. The journey film was all 7201 50D. The motive power film used a number of short-ends. The black locomotive (No 1) was shot with 200T, the Red Locomotive (No 2) was 100T and the green locomotive (No 4) was 50D. The two tungsten stocks were shot through a correction filter which lost me 2/3 stop. The 200T does have a slight 'texture' when viewed on the TV screen (not objectionable though, and most 'normal' people haven't noticed it). The 100T and 50D both look the same... although by the time you've filtered it for colour the 100T is exposed at 64asa anyway!
Posted 15 April 2008 - 12:48 PM
By everything you told me, you stimulate my admiration for the wonderful job you have done. Yes, I already imagined that the "sound design" of your youtube movie was a combination between studio's sound effects and some direct sound from the shooting's location. How many people could really understand that the incredible efforts made in order to make a motion picture film means a sorte of dedication for the film art, instead to simply and confortably use a video camera? In my opinion what you have done is little piece of art.
Regarding my own film test from the recently got Russian camera Krasnogorsk k3 was just with Kodak Vision 2 200 T. So far, I never used 50D or 100D. I really think that Tungsten is more appropiate for the indoor shooting (interior sequences) and is not so advisable for outdoor shooting. In the next future I will try to use Kodak vision 3 500D for exterior and Kodak vision 3 500T for the interior shooting.
Thank you again for your amiability. Keep in touch.
Posted 16 April 2008 - 03:31 AM
It seems to make sense to use tungsten balanced indoors; to filter daylight down to tungsten will loose about 2 stops ...which means LOTS of light! The fastest kodak daylight stock is 250D, which would be reduced to about 80asa under tungsten light. Using tungsten outside isn't much of a problem - 2/3 stop isn't a great deal, and there's more speed range in the tungsten stocks.
I wasn't aware Kodak had released a vision 3 500D? I thought they only did 500T?
Fuji do a 500D, but I'd guess you'd only need that for very low light conditions.
On a sunny day without additional ND filters 50D will be around f11-f16. 500D would be an extra 3 stops: f32-f45 in the sun
Although in one sense the K3 won't care what film you put inside, don't forget 500T film will be a lot more sensitive to light leaks through ill-fitting doors etc. than a 50 asa stock will be - more care with the sealing tape!
Posted 16 April 2008 - 09:15 AM
Sorry, Ian. You are perfectely right. Is Kodak VISION3 500T, not 500D
But let me ask you something new, even if I coul appear like the fool of the village.
In one previous message of you you wrote is as follows - and I quote you - "My first task was to strip it down, loose the loop formers, clean & lubricate, free off a couple of seized rollers and fit new light trap foam."
So, in this moment do you have the loop formers inside your camera or not?
Posted 16 April 2008 - 09:42 AM
No loop formers - all removed!
(sorry, I meant 'loose' as in 'lost', rather than 'loose' as in 'loosen/slacken/adjust')
I read too many comments online that they risked scratching the film. Before I removed them I tried passing film through - even with them moved fully back the film still tended to make contact... and it also liked to jam coming off the bottom loop former .
My advice would be to get rid of them!!
The information on the k3camera.com website is enough to show how to get it apart and back together again.
Threading manually isn't difficult, and the camera doesn't seem too fussy on loop size.
I make sure the top loop is large enough for the film to enter the pressure plate square on (ie. not so short it is trying to pull the pressure plate away from the gate, but not so large the film risks making contact with any other surfaces). I follow a similar process for the bottom loop, but tend to edge a little on the generous side. A quick blast at 25fps with the cover off confirms the loops don't get lost and the camera is feeding OK, then seal it all up and run about 10 seconds through to clear any fogged film from the loading process. I unload in a darkroom/changing bag/coat to prevent loosing the last scene to fogging as well.
Posted 16 April 2008 - 03:01 PM
Thank you Ian. This a very good advise. I will quickly put into practice.
I dont know if you really realize how important is for me your guiding and your experience with this kind of camera. Why? Because I made an important financial effort in order to buy this Krasnogosrsk camera from ebay, from a guy from Ukraine. I hardly need it because I am shooting an artistic movie with a Sony HD video camera and inside the digital edited final version of my movie I want to insert few fragments of maximum 10 minutes from motion picture's Krasnogorsk K3 images (then make the telecine transfer of them for include them in the editing process). I want to make this insertion of motion picture film by pictorial and esthetic reasons, by the necessity to have inside the all shooting very pictorial images (depth of field, other kind of emulsion and granulation, other receptivity of the light, especially for the very photographycal sequences). Even if I' m deeply convinced that Krasnogorsk is not an appropiate camera for professional job, it was all I could afford from financially point of view for my project. For this reason, I have to be very suspicious and carefull in order to have a camera in very good working conditions. Sorry for this long lamento. I hope you will understand me.
Other question is related to your previous assertion: "I fit new light trap foam". How and why?
Posted 16 April 2008 - 03:35 PM
The thing is that a K3 camera is the least expensive part of the process, your film, processing & transfer will undoubtably cost more than the camera itself. A little more investment on the hardware might payoff for you down the road if you continue to make films.
On the other hand, even if your camera has small issues, you can always get it serviced and put into perfect working order. Often these came from the factory messed up. Probably about $200 would take care of almost any issue with the camera.
Posted 16 April 2008 - 07:05 PM
Could you be more explicite. What does mean in your opinion "little more investement on the hardware" and what about those 200$? In my opinion the real and limited improuving option has already posted on www.k3.com and it could cost more than 200$ (conversion to super 16 mm, sync electric motor, maybe some additional lenses). So?
Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:20 AM
Given the warnings I'd read about light leaking in, I thought it best to give the camera every possible chance of performing well! The cost of film stock and lab charges is more than the time and money of removing loop formers, replacing the foam and giving it a good clean and lube. (and more than the cost of the camera and extra lens come to think of it )
I had the camera in bits giving it a clean and overhaul anyway. For the almost non-existent extra cost, and small amount of time, it seemed silly not to. When you lift the metal plate out to remove the loop formers you'll find light trap foam around the edge of the film counter window and up nearer the gate end of the compartment.
Although this foam hadn't turned to goo on my camera, it had lost some of its 'bounce' and was starting to flake. Replacement light trap foam is readily available off the 'net. I can't remember where I got mine from, but here's a selection currently listed on ebay
All I did was use a small amount of solvent to clean off the old foam, then cut the new stuff into strips and fasten it down (it has a self-adhesive backing).
...Oh, and what I think Will was on about regarding hardware was choosing a more expensive, but more reliable and quieter camera than a K3 for professional projects.
Of course it depends on budget and intended use; a K3 might be a cheap choice for short inserts not requiring sync sound, but the prospect of shooting anything too long or complicated with it would require quite a lot of determination. The end results might take longer to achieve and not be as good as those obtained by renting much better equipment for a shorter period of time.
Posted 17 April 2008 - 03:17 AM
Oh, the other thing I did to the camera was find out where 25fps actually was.
I loaded the camera with 100ft of fogged test film and removed the lens, then using a stroboscope set at 25Hz I was able to adjust the speed dial on the camera until the shutter remained 'stationary'. I then scribed the dial to mark the position.
In practice the speed varies by around 1fps between fully wound and fully unwound. Nowhere near crystal sync, but at least with the camera operating at an accurate nominal 25fps any movement on film looks normal.
It's much better than taking a guess by using the settings on the speed dial - the governor pads have worn over the years so the dial markings aren't very accurate now (...of course that assumes they were accurate when it left the factory!)
Posted 03 July 2008 - 09:09 PM
I don't think it was ever meant to be accurate, but coming out of the factory it probably didn't vary more than one or two fps.
Wow, that video on k3camera.com is awesome, I just took out the loop formers, though putting it all back together isn't as easy as taking it apart, I was done in about two hours, much easier than I though, mainly after hearing all that stuff about being complicated to dis- and reassemble, inverted screws, and blablabla... ("Save the life of my child...") One question remains though, why would you care where the 25fps setting is? It's probably so unaccurate that it doesn't matter, do you really notice a speed up of one or two fps? (This is not irony, if you do, you got great eyesight).
And Will, I think you have a good point saying that using this camera is the smallest of expenses when filming a lot. I personally don't understand why people buy a 150$ camera, and then spend hundreds of bucks in modifications, when it would be so much easier to get something like a Kinor (wink to Olex), or even an Arri 16BL or something, it's a much better investment. A K3 is useless for anything other than "down and dirty" documentary footage, B-Camera, Crash camera (like the suicide scene in Clockwork Orange), or something like that... But hey, it's just my personal opinion.
Posted 04 July 2008 - 02:27 AM
I think it's more a case of it should run at (a nominal) 25fps, so I'd like it to be as close as possible. Access to a strobe light is readily available where I work, so it didn't cost me any money or much effort to check out.
A 24fps marking already exists on the camera, but there's a fair range of dial settings which could be read as having the 24 lined up with the dot. By checking with the strobe I discovered that all the markings on the camera were way out (and I don't mean by just a couple of fps!). I can't remember off hand what speed the original dial shows when I'm at 25, but it's nowhere near 24! Having the camera run just 5fps out is still a 20% speed up/slow down. I now have a fine scribed line marking the nominal 25fps position which I can easily and repeatably set the dial to, I then have a bit of camera tape over it to ensure I don't keep knocking it without noticing .
When I ran the first test film through the camera I did try to film somebody talking. Syncing up the audio with the pictures afterwards showed it remained in believable sync for the 10 seconds or so the camera was running. I can't think of a reason why I would want to try filming speech, but it's nice to know it can be achieved in short bursts with care!
Posted 04 July 2008 - 02:58 AM
I'd just like to say what all others on this thread say, that the K3 footage looks great. I was reading another thread last week where John Sprung suggested using a strobe light to test FPS's - I've googled and have come up with nothing other than large disco lights. Do you have a link to a strobe light that you used. Thanks, Tim
Posted 04 July 2008 - 06:13 AM
Thank you for the kind comments.
I got the impression the strobe John referred to was a specific instrument for calibrating camera shutters. I don't have access to anything like that, I just used a pretty basic laboratory strobe light. It isn't possible to set the flash rate accurately using the internal timer, so I connected it to an external pulse generator, frequency counter and oscilloscope. Using those instruments I set the strobe to 25Hz.
The example we have here is an old one made by "Griffin and George", but reference to their website now seems to suggest they specialise in educational supplies for schools, and don't list anything similar.
A quick google has turned up these strobe tachos
I've no idea how good or accurate these might be, but for finding the speed of a clockwork camera they might be OK. The strobe I used didn't have any tacho. feature, but I was able to trigger it from an external accurate source. If you fancy experimenting with a cheaper option then something like this:
might be worth trying. For £4.99 you haven't got much to loose.
There's more information on it on the Velleman website. Seems to be adjustable from 1 to 60Hz so might be adequate if used in a darkened room. Probably about as accurate and stable as the k3 itself though . Suspect you could do with either an oscilloscope or frequency counter to be able to find out the frequency it's running at though!