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#1 Tom Hepburn

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 03:30 PM

Hello All,

I'm looking to upgrade to the next level in terms of a camera. I now have a Kodak Cini k-100 turret camera. I think it's extremely stable and durable. However, it doesn't have a reflex viewfinder, no zoom lens, and no motor only wind.

My question is what would the "next level" camera be and is it possible to get one with a zoom lens, battery operated motor, and reflex finder, for under $1,000. One camera that seems to fill the need is a Beaulieu R16 w/Angenieux 12-120.

Any recommendations on this model or others would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Tom
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#2 Richardson Leao

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 05:26 PM

kinor 16cx (in my opinion it's the best u can take for <1k

scoopic

i think pentaflexes have zoom also

Hello All,

I'm looking to upgrade to the next level in terms of a camera. I now have a Kodak Cini k-100 turret camera. I think it's extremely stable and durable. However, it doesn't have a reflex viewfinder, no zoom lens, and no motor only wind.

My question is what would the "next level" camera be and is it possible to get one with a zoom lens, battery operated motor, and reflex finder, for under $1,000. One camera that seems to fill the need is a Beaulieu R16 w/Angenieux 12-120.

Any recommendations on this model or others would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Tom


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#3 Tom Hepburn

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 07:06 PM

Thanks for the response. I'll look into those.

One other thing I'd like to add to my post is that I'd like to be able to shoot at least to 64fps.

T
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#4 Craig Knowles

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 07:35 PM

Personally, I'd move up to an Eclair ACL.

I've went the Super8-->Bolex EBM-->Eclair ACL route and I'd vote to skip right to the ACL. You'll get much better images, it's closer to a professional level camera, it has interchangeable mags, C-mount lens, optional adapters for better lenses, is capable of sync sound, shoots up to 75fps and it'll probably get you much a lot further down the road before you'd be wanting to upgrade again.

I got one on eBay some time ago for $750 with a case and some mags. They're not all that cheap but if you can find one in your price range, I think you'll be much happier than with a Beaulieu.

Edited by Craig Knowles, 21 March 2008 - 07:37 PM.

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#5 Scott Bryant

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 10:17 AM

I've went the Super8-->Bolex EBM-->Eclair ACL route and I'd vote to skip right to the ACL


I would agree. I went Bolex H8--> Beaulieu R16--> Eclair NPR in not a very long time. Each one leaps above the other. I know many people have preferences and this is just mine. There are many excellent cameras available for sync work and high frame rates.

My Opinion:
The bealieu will get you the reflex viewing and higher fps but if I were you and could afford it I would save up for an Eclair. I've personally only had experience with the NPR. With that you can have everything you get with the ACL plus you can vary the shutter angle which is more important to some people than others.

Either way, the ACL or NPR would be well worth saving a little extra money to be able to use better lenses and a better camera in general. Not that this should make a difference, but it would also give you a bit more "seriousness" in the eyes of the rest of your filmmaking crew. Depending on what you are doing you might not care (I typically don't), but i think subconsiously people see a camera like an ACL or NPR and work a little harder b/c they think it's a bit more serious.

If you are completely set on Beaulieu it will be a good stepping stone camera to better things (I could sell you my old one if you are interested ;) ), but i would highly recommend just skipping it and going with Eclair.

P.s. All apologies for a smiley in my post.
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#6 Tom Hepburn

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 01:51 PM

Thanks folks,

Can you explain in basic terms the differences between these two models along with the pros and cons:

Eclair ACL and NPR

Thanks again for helping me along, and any other posts are will welcome.

T
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#7 Richardson Leao

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 02:06 PM

Thanks folks,

Can you explain in basic terms the differences between these two models along with the pros and cons:

Eclair ACL and NPR

Thanks again for helping me along, and any other posts are will welcome.

T


don't forget the kinor yet...

the complete kit has several primes and zoom lenses, with glasses comparable to top arri lenses. The cam is ultra stable (reg pin included) and Olexandr Kalynichenko can modify the camera to do multispeed (including 64fps) for a very reasonable price.
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#8 Craig Knowles

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 08:14 PM

Can you explain in basic terms the differences between these two models along with the pros and cons:

Eclair ACL and NPR


I don't think one is really any better than the other, it comes down more to personal preference and intended shooting style:

-- Both are work horses, having been priced around $25,000 when new in the 60s and 70s.
-- Both take C-mount lenses (as well as CA-1/Eclair mount lenses) standard
-- Both have detachable coaxial magazines that are easy to load
-- Both take power from external and/or onboard batteries (most people use 12v XLR power, like Bescor or something)
-- Both are capable of sync sound
-- Both have reflex viewfinders
-- Both can be converted to Super 16 (NPR was the first camera to be converted to S16 I think)
-- Both sell for around the same price range, depending on options, number of mags, condition, etc.

In terms of differences:

-- NPR standard motor goes up to 48 fps, ACL goes to 75 fps (these can vary though, depending on what type of motor a specific camera has)
-- NPR is generally a bit older as the ACL was made after the NPR
-- NPR has adjustable shutter speed, 5-180 degrees where ACL is not adjustable
-- ACL is a little smaller, lighter and designed for hand held work (but with handgrip, the NPR really isn't that unwieldy)
-- NPR is pin registered while ACL is not
-- Pin registration may make the NPR a tiny bit louder than the ACL on average

I don't think you can go wrong with either of them, really. I wouldn't let the differences sway you in one direction or the other. If you can find one in your price range that looks to meet your needs, I'd go for either. They're both solid cameras that are pretty easy to use, have stood the test of time, and were considered "professional" in their day.

Edited by Craig Knowles, 22 March 2008 - 08:15 PM.

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#9 Ole Dost

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 03:37 PM

kinor 16cx (in my opinion it's the best u can take for <1k

scoopic

i think pentaflexes have zoom also


Richardson is right! Look for a Kinor 16 sx-2m. You will get interchangeable Mags in two (!) sizes : 100ft and 400Ft. The lenses are great and often found on EBay for very reasonable prices. The images are rocksteady due to pin registration. You will get them mostly much cheaper then a Eclair ACL, but you get an image quality that is at least as good. The Kinor 16 was designed as a true professional camera -it was in use for TV News Gathering mostly. The motor only allows 25 fps, but Olexandr Kalynychenko is able to convert the motor into a multi-speed crystal-sync motor -at least 50fps fastest.
I would not use an expensive camera with a faster frame rate as this makes increase the running noise gradually. Don´t use an Eclair ACL with 75 fps!!
Have a look for Kinors on EBay! I got mine for about 500 $ and I love it.
Best regards,
Ole
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#10 Tom Hepburn

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 08:35 AM

Hello,

Can anyone tell me how the Kinor compares to the ACL/NPR in terms of noise level. As I mentioned I'm looking to record diaglog too.

Thanks,
T
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#11 Ole Dost

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 11:55 AM

Hello,

Can anyone tell me how the Kinor compares to the ACL/NPR in terms of noise level. As I mentioned I'm looking to record diaglog too.

Thanks,
T


The Kinor 16 sx-2m is definitely louder. If this is a very big disadvantage compared to the both Eclaires depends on the environment you´re using it in. Outside a building it will be easy to record sync sound without any camerasound on the audio tape /flash card or whatever you use for sound recording. I Have been doing some interviews with my Kinor 16 sx´s (I am owning two of them) in last autumn. The distance between the Mic and the camera had been about two meters. I can hear no camera sound at all when listening to the recorded interviews. Inside a building it will be difficult when the room you´re in is small. In larger rooms you can place the shotgun-Mic close to the sound source and then remove the camera as far as possible from the Mic. This will help a lot.
When you compare the cost of the two -Kinor 16 sx and Eclaire family- the difference of the noise level is not worth paying the big difference. Remember: The images and the steadiness of Kinor will be absolutely the same as the quality of Eclair images. And normally you can get at least two or sometimes even three Kinors for the cost of one Eclair!!
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#12 Tom Hepburn

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 08:32 PM

Hello folks,

In my research, I've also come across the Cinema Products cameras. From what I can tell, they seem to be quiet and light, and much more reasonably priced. Are there any thoughts on these cameras? If their prices in general are cheaper, perhaps there is something I'm not aware of?

Thanks in advance,
T
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#13 Richardson Leao

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 04:47 AM

Hello folks,

In my research, I've also come across the Cinema Products cameras. From what I can tell, they seem to be quiet and light, and much more reasonably priced. Are there any thoughts on these cameras? If their prices in general are cheaper, perhaps there is something I'm not aware of?

Thanks in advance,
T


than you loose the reflex option... If you don't want a reflex cam I'd then consider a ikonscope, new s16 camera.
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#14 David Auner aac

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 05:53 AM

than you loose the reflex option... If you don't want a reflex cam I'd then consider a ikonscope, new s16 camera.


Cinema Products also has reflex cameras. The CP-16R is one example.

Tim, best do a search of the 16mm board here, the questions has been asked numerous times and you'll find loads of info in the older threads!

Cheers, Dave
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#15 Tom Hepburn

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 11:33 AM

Cinema Products also has reflex cameras. The CP-16R is one example.

Tim, best do a search of the 16mm board here, the questions has been asked numerous times and you'll find loads of info in the older threads!

Cheers, Dave


Dave,

I did do a search and came up with one page, with many posts selling or talking about other cameras. This post has been very helpful to me. One reply was yours and I appreciate it. I'm making a significant investment and have found that asking specific questions, will many times get specific answers.

Thanks for the answers in all of the above posts. They really help.

T
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#16 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 01:51 PM

ACL motors came in different models. You have to get a heavy duty ACL 2 motor to go all the way to 75 fps, and it will, despite what Ole says above, I have done it many times. But it may be the motor, or the mags he used were funky. Heavy duty motors are more expensive and hard to find but are the ONLY ones guaranteed to keep sync with 400' loads.

-English mags are funky unless they are the French style, don't get the roller ones.

-ACL sound levels are loud-ish when running but there are people who sell blimps for them out there.

-CP (CP16, GZMO) cameras are VERY HARD (and therefore expensive) to convert to S16, unlike ACL and NPR. Otherwise, CP cams are very nice and good overall.

GO TEAM ACL!
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#17 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 04:16 AM

If you are completely set on Beaulieu it will be a good stepping stone camera to better things (I could sell you my old one if you are interested ;) )


Just outta curiosity, what would you want for yours? I want to pick up a few 16mm s for the Del Norte' Film Institute. If you would want to donate it, we would be able to give you a deductible receipt for the full market value which may be higher that what you would ever be able to sell it for. PM me if you're are interested or can get give me a good price. Thanks-Steve
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