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Rating 500T at 320.....


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#1 Nick Castronuova

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 06:02 PM

Can anyone tell me the advantage of doing this?

Best,

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#2 Jim Keller

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 06:07 PM

Can anyone tell me the advantage of doing this?


Only ever done it using 500T as a motion picture film, but I've done it with 500T spooled for my still camera, and it resulted in a significantly lower-grain image with slightly richer colors. The theory is that the additional light creates a denser negative, giving you the advantages, though my brother who used to work at Kodak insists that it's really just because Kodak historically mislabels all its films by at least two stops. :)
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#3 Michael Nash

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 06:36 PM

Yes, overexposing negative creates more density -- which means thicker dye clouds of color -- which means increased color saturation and contrast, as well as more exposed fine grains "filling in" the gaps between the larger, coarser "slow" grains. So the overall appearance of grain is smoother.

As for Kodak's "mislabeling," I believe their rating is based on a target density for midtones (LAD). In practice though, you might get more desireable results from a denser-than-normal negative. It's very common to under-rate color negative by 1/3-2/3 stop.
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#4 Nick Castronuova

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 08:47 PM

Does anyone have any examples of this?

For indoor shooting, Am I better off shooting 200T or shooting 500T rated at 320T?

Basically, all I'd have to do is set my meter accordingly, right?
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#5 Michael Nash

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:01 PM

Does anyone have any examples of this?


Pretty much every movie you've ever watched... ;)

Yes, you would set your meter for 320 ASA and expose according to that. Your negative will of course be a little overexposed, so it helps to shoot a properly exposed gray card (at 320 ASA) at the head of the roll, so that the telecine colorist or lab timer can see what you intended for "proper" exposure.

For indoor shooting, Am I better off shooting 200T or shooting 500T rated at 320T?


It depends on how much light you need for exposure. But all other things being equal, the slower film (200 ASA) will have slightly finer grain than the 500 rated at 320 ASA.
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#6 Mike Williamson

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 09:03 PM

I prefer overexposing faster stock myself, so I'd take 500T and shoot it at 320 or 250 before I would shoot 200T rated normally. It's hard to tell from a DVD, but you could look at both "The Matrix" and "Fight Club", they were shot largely on the old Vision 500T and rated at 250 ASA. They're both very well lit films, but I've felt that a lot of the texture and density of the blacks in those movies comes from overexposing and printing down.

And yes, all you've got to do is change the rating on your light meter, then process normally. It wouldn't hurt to shoot a gray card properly exposed at whatever ASA you're working at, 320 in your example, at the head of the first roll.
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#7 Nick Castronuova

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 10:00 PM

Last question guys...

Would you all recommend shooting daylight film for exteriors, or should I shoot 200T with a filter?
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#8 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 10:07 PM

Personally, I like the 200 with an 85 rated @ 125. that's just me though.
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#9 Michael Nash

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Posted 27 March 2008 - 11:21 PM

Would you all recommend shooting daylight film for exteriors, or should I shoot 200T with a filter?


It depends on the shooting conditions. With 200T in bright sunlight you end up with such heavy ND filtration on the lens that it gets hard to see through the viewfinder. In the shade it's less of a problem, and the extra speed can help you keep shooting on the same stock as the day goes late and you start to lose ambient daylight (compared to shooting with a slow film). Otherwise, there's no real difference between shooting tungsten film with an 85 filter and shooting daylight stock. The difference then is more between the filmstocks themselves (such as the grain structure of 50 ASA film compared to 200 ASA).
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#10 Nick Castronuova

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 02:25 AM

how much typically does an ND filter eat? Was it 1/3rd a stop?
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#11 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 02:35 AM

a .3 ND is 1 stop, a .6 is 2 a .9 is 3. . . It all depends on which ND you're using.
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#12 Serge Teulon

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 12:42 PM

It depends on the shooting conditions. With 200T in bright sunlight you end up with such heavy ND filtration on the lens that it gets hard to see through the viewfinder. In the shade it's less of a problem, and the extra speed can help you keep shooting on the same stock as the day goes late and you start to lose ambient daylight (compared to shooting with a slow film). Otherwise, there's no real difference between shooting tungsten film with an 85 filter and shooting daylight stock. The difference then is more between the filmstocks themselves (such as the grain structure of 50 ASA film compared to 200 ASA).



I tend to choose T stock in daylight as I find that the 85 slightly enriches the blacks. If thats what I am after of course....

S
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#13 Nick Castronuova

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 01:24 PM

what gives the best colors and sharpest images?

Nick
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#14 Michael Nash

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 03:14 PM

That depends what you mean by "best." Most saturated? Most accurate? Best flesh-to-neutral reproduction? Most neutral throughout the tonal range? In terms of overall saturation, you would slightly overexpose any negative, as mentioned. If you want an extra boost to your color saturation you could try KODAK EKTACHROME 100D - 5285/7285 or ETERNA Vivid 160. If you're finishing on video you have the opportunity to enhance the color during the telecine transfer also.

Pretty much all negative stocks have similar acutance, but slower stocks with fine grain structure and high contrast enhance the illusion of sharpness. The illusion of sharpness is tied to contrast, so a film or format with low acutance (measurable sharpness) can still look sharp with sufficient contrast (especially with rich blacks).
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#15 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 12:39 AM

In Super-8, if the 500T is rated 320 but there are bright, white highlights and the shot is contrasty, the chance for more visible grain in the whites seems to increase.

So the contrast of the scene could be a secondary issue when it comes to how the 500T is rated.
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#16 Michael Nash

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 12:44 AM

Alessandro, are you seeing this grain in a telecine transfer of the footage, or a print? If it's telecine then you're likely seeing telecine noise from too much density in those highlights, which could appear quite noticeable with Super 8.
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