Jump to content


Photo

Old Fashion Editing


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 Derrick Mullins

Derrick Mullins

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Director

Posted 02 April 2008 - 07:47 PM

I would love to edit my S8 films the with cutting and splicing. I want to keep the ancient art alive and I love the fact that my films can be created by my own hands. But I certanly can't afford to ruin my films. I would like to know if you guys could give me a "How To" method on this kind of editing. Any info would be great!
  • 0

#2 Paul Bruening

Paul Bruening

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 2858 posts
  • Producer
  • Oxford, Mississippi

Posted 02 April 2008 - 07:54 PM

Don't cut your original footage until all your decisions have been worked out with a SD workprint or S8mm workprint. Cut your originals off of the workprint. The more you can handle the prints the better your decisions will be. The less you handle the originals, the better they will hold up.
  • 0

#3 Jean-Louis Seguin

Jean-Louis Seguin
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Other
  • Montreal, Canada

Posted 02 April 2008 - 08:14 PM

I would love to edit my S8 films the with cutting and splicing. I want to keep the ancient art alive and I love the fact that my films can be created by my own hands. But I certanly can't afford to ruin my films. I would like to know if you guys could give me a "How To" method on this kind of editing. Any info would be great!




I have cut a lot of super8 original over the years and here I have never damaged film.
Here is my advice:

Set aside an area that you can keep as clean and dust-free as possible.
Only manipulate film by holding it by the edges.
Clean film periodically with anti-static film cleaner. Wash your hands very often or use moist towelettes.
Use a splicer with pre-perforated tapes. My favorites are #1 Wurker and #2 Fujica .
Avoid Guillotine splicers, especially the plastic ones. The cutters that punch the holes in the tape can damage the perfs.
Avoid editing gloves, the fibers will stick to the splicing tape and drive you crazy (Lenny Lipton said this many years ago and he was right!).

Have fun!

Jean-Louis
  • 0

#4 Derrick Mullins

Derrick Mullins

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Director

Posted 02 April 2008 - 09:41 PM

Don't cut your original footage until all your decisions have been worked out with a SD workprint or S8mm workprint. Cut your originals off of the workprint. The more you can handle the prints the better your decisions will be. The less you handle the originals, the better they will hold up.


Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

Avoid editing gloves, the fibers will stick to the splicing tape and drive you crazy


I was never going to use gloves anyway.

I would like to know if there is some kind of specific razor or any other optional cutting device that I would need and what would be the actual process in the cutting?
  • 0

#5 Bengt Freden

Bengt Freden
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Stockholm, Sweden

Posted 03 April 2008 - 09:02 PM

Hi Derrick,

I have used Fujica, Würker and Bolex tape splicers (with the slim Bolex being my favourite of these) but my Nr. 1 all time-favourite splicer is the German Hähnel 'Kollmatic' SD-8 (or the identical, also German, Braun FK-1) motorized beveled-edge cement splicer. After an initial period of training on waste film or leader material, I think you will appreciate the thin and smooth splices that you can achieve with this remarkable little AA battery-operated machine. Moreover, with the aid of a very fine-tipped black permanent marker and a magnifying glass, you may 'paint' the one frame where the splice is - and your splice will be impossible to detect in projection (or when transfered), especially if you run at 24 fps with a 3-bladed projector! You have to use a dust blower regularly, though, to blow away the grinding dust from the film base and emulsion, which otherwise might end up on your film or in your splice. I use Kodak´s Professional Cement, which is OK for all film bases except polyester-based (the slightly thinner Fuji Single-8 films, for example).

It looks like this and can be seen under 'editing equipment' on eBay from time to time, where it usually sells for next-to-nothing:

Posted Image

Good luck with your originl reversal film or preparatory negative cutting - it is great fun!
/ Bengt in Stockholm ;)
  • 0

#6 Peter Harkness

Peter Harkness

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts
  • Director

Posted 04 April 2008 - 08:49 AM

I've made several super-8 films over the years. Here is one zero-budget workflow which mixes the old and the new:

1. Shoot on reversal film.
2. When you get your film back from the lab, PROJECT it onto a wall and videotape it with a DV camcorder.
3. Make an "offline" edit of your movie in the computer so that you know what footage you really need and what footage you don't need.
4. Use a VIEWER and a SPLICER to assemble all of the footage you need onto a single reel.
5. Send that reel to The Transfer Station in CA (http://thetransferstation.com/) for a Rank telecine transfer to MiniDV. This is a very affordable route. If you weedle your footage down to just the stuff you need, all of it mounted onto a single 20 minute reel, you may get the Transfer Station's $100/hr minimum + fees. ~$150 for a Rank transfer is nice.
6. Edit final product again "online" at final quality on computer.
7. Send your masterpiece to festivals and watch the cash prizes roll in ;)

So, with a super-8 camera, a projector, a viewer, a splicer, a DV camcorder, and a computer, you can be a one-person super-8 production studio at very low costs. If you shoot 24fps super-8, you will probably want a 24fps projector also.

Personally, I swear by my Minette S4 viewer and Ciro tape splicer. I researched viewers for a bit, and the Minette S4 and S5 are said to be very easy on film. I can vouch for that! It is a pleasure to use. The Ciro tape splicer is a tiny plastic splicer, and the tape is made such that splices cover two frames exactly, making edit points mostly invisible. If you send your super-8 film off to a lab for telecine, they will probably remove your tape splices and make their own cement splices anyway (at least, this is what The Transfer Station does) so personally I do not think cement splicers are worth the trouble of maintaining. I can still buy new tape for my Ciro and it lasts forever.

Minette S4
http://super8wiki.co...ewer_Editor_S-4

Ciro Splicers and Tape:
http://www.super8stu...ngsupplies.html

Good luck.
  • 0

#7 Derrick Mullins

Derrick Mullins

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Director

Posted 04 April 2008 - 05:08 PM

Wow! Thanks for all the info guys! I love that others feel the same passion I do. I've searched alot on the internet but couldn't find much on this subject. I feel digtal is taking the "work" out of filmmaking. But thats just my opinion. Thanks alot!
  • 0

#8 Phillip Wood

Phillip Wood
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts
  • Director

Posted 06 April 2008 - 12:37 AM

i found some info on splicing here;

http://www.city-net..../edit/art1.html
  • 0

#9 Derrick Mullins

Derrick Mullins

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 4 posts
  • Director

Posted 06 April 2008 - 09:00 AM

I thought it was funny how the article likes to point out non-professional ways. But its very informative. The splicer I use is a Switt Automatic splicer. Its pretty simple and small but it works. I found it cheap on ebay. I was also wondering if you actually need a viewer or is it required?

Edited by Derrick Mullins, 06 April 2008 - 09:02 AM.

  • 0

#10 Brian Drysdale

Brian Drysdale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5069 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 06 April 2008 - 09:28 AM

I thought it was funny how the article likes to point out non-professional ways. But its very informative. The splicer I use is a Switt Automatic splicer. Its pretty simple and small but it works. I found it cheap on ebay. I was also wondering if you actually need a viewer or is it required?


From when I shot 8mm, you do need a viewer. The frames are so small you can't see that much or make judgements on movement. You need one for 16mm as well, unless you're neg cutting and just matching the edge numbers in a synchroniser.
  • 0

#11 Phillip Wood

Phillip Wood
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 14 posts
  • Director

Posted 07 April 2008 - 08:06 AM

can cement be used on all of the current Super 8 Stock? kodak, fuji, wittner..?
  • 0

#12 Leo Anthony Vale

Leo Anthony Vale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2010 posts
  • Other
  • Pittsburgh PA

Posted 07 April 2008 - 02:27 PM

can cement be used on all of the current Super 8 Stock? kodak, fuji, wittner..?


On all acetate base stocks. Estar base won't work.
  • 0

#13 Bill DiPietra

Bill DiPietra
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2339 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • New York City

Posted 10 April 2008 - 12:17 PM

Wow! Thanks for all the info guys! I love that others feel the same passion I do. I've searched alot on the internet but couldn't find much on this subject. I feel digtal is taking the "work" out of filmmaking. But thats just my opinion. Thanks alot!


Hey...some of us even have our own 16mm Steenbecks in our basements! ;)

Good luck and enjoy.
  • 0

#14 Nate Downes

Nate Downes
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1638 posts
  • Florida, USA

Posted 10 April 2008 - 06:00 PM

Hey...some of us even have our own 16mm Steenbecks in our basements! ;)

Good luck and enjoy.


Egads, and I just have a B&H set w/ viewer, splicer and rewinds....
  • 0

#15 Charles Doran

Charles Doran
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 65 posts
  • Other

Posted 10 April 2008 - 06:09 PM

I used to love splicing the old fashioned way...Used a Hervic (RIP)... easiest splicer in the world. Wish I could still find some of the tape patches...Anyone have a cache hidden away they don't need?

Edited by Charles Doran, 10 April 2008 - 06:10 PM.

  • 0

#16 Jim Carlile

Jim Carlile
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 464 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 11 April 2008 - 01:55 AM

Otto Herskovic (Hervic) is the brother of the guy who started Bel Air Camera in Westwood. A few months ago I sent someone over there to track down some of those Minette splices-- they were going to try to get some for him. Maybe they have them now. Otto H. used to have a bunch of his old leftover stuff in his garage somewhere.

Also, there's a chance that Irv Higdon might have some, too.

About those splices-- the newer ones dry out and the paper backing sticks to the tape-- so you have to prise them apart with tweezers to help them along, or you end up with a crumpled mess.
  • 0

#17 Richardson Leao

Richardson Leao
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 363 posts
  • Other
  • Stockholm, Sweden

Posted 11 April 2008 - 04:27 AM

You won't regret to do it using a viewer and a splicer...

This is a nice book:

CUT ? ALL ABOUT SPLICERS

u can get it for free if you subscribe smallformat:

http://smallformat.schiele-schoen.de

I remember seeing a video on how to use a cement splicer that helped me heaps. cAN'T FIND RIGHT NOW BUT YOU'LL FIND A LOT OF INFO HERE:

http://www.folkstreams.net/vafp/

I got so hooked onto cutting by hand that I ended up buyng a KEM (like a stenbeck) table:

http://bp1.blogger.c...0-h/Kem16mm.jpg

Go for it man! No fear!

Edited by Richardson Leao, 11 April 2008 - 04:28 AM.

  • 0

#18 Richardson Leao

Richardson Leao
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 363 posts
  • Other
  • Stockholm, Sweden

Posted 11 April 2008 - 04:31 AM

btw, my table is not in the basement... I dedicated a room in my house specially for it... Sometimes I even think that the only reason why I bought a house was to fit the table ;)

Edited by Richardson Leao, 11 April 2008 - 04:31 AM.

  • 0


Willys Widgets

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Tai Audio

Rig Wheels Passport

FJS International, LLC

Visual Products

Wooden Camera

The Slider

CineLab

Technodolly

Abel Cine

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Opal

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Glidecam

Metropolis Post

Aerial Filmworks

rebotnix Technologies

Ritter Battery

Paralinx LLC

CineTape

Ritter Battery

Aerial Filmworks

CineLab

FJS International, LLC

The Slider

Rig Wheels Passport

Glidecam

Wooden Camera

Abel Cine

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Opal

Willys Widgets

rebotnix Technologies

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

CineTape

Technodolly

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Visual Products

Tai Audio

Paralinx LLC

Metropolis Post