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It's a sad shame


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#1 Josh Gannon

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 05:09 AM

I have just returned to these forums after a couple of months absents to find the same old crap being thrown around these forums.

I have been using Reds successfully for 6 months now and I know all the good points and bad points but no one seems to care, people are more interested in arguing. like it or not these cameras have pushed there way into the market and are here to stay for the time being.

Please people.... can we end this bullshit and start talking about what we can and can't do with this camera without every topic ending in the same old argument.



No need to reply Jim. I'm sick of the propaganda, I'm pretty sure I know your cameras better then you do.
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#2 Valerio Sacchetto

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:37 AM

isn't THIS an attempt to start an argument?
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#3 Josh Gannon

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 06:41 AM

No it's not. It's an attempt to get professionals to talk about the Red camera and its capabilities without the same old attitude.

I've got a lot of experience and information to ad to these forums. Take it or leave it.




This is exactly the kind of crap I'm talking about. If you don't have anything informative to say then DON'T POST. It's a waste of your time and mine.

This is supposed to be a forum of professionals.

Edited by Josh Gannon, 07 April 2008 - 06:44 AM.

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#4 Valerio Sacchetto

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 07:08 AM

If you don't have anything informative to say then DON'T POST. It's a waste of your time and mine.

This is supposed to be a forum of professionals.


That's exactly my point. you said nothing yet you had to write about other's attitude and as you can see that leaded to a (sort of) argument. Complaining is not the answer. If you have something useful to say (and i'm quite sure you have after months of practice) just do it, i want to hear your infos not your rants about the forum and that's what i think others want too. Allen Achterberg did a good job just some days ago without any comment about the state of the forum. That's all.
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#5 Keith Walters

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 07:09 AM

I've got a lot of experience and information to ad to these forums. Take it or leave it.


Well then put your money where your mouth is. Add it. Post it. It won't cost you anything. What are you waiting for?

Until we have some hard evidence (apart from a couple of "set pieces" from the usual suspects), people are going to continue to be skeptical about the RED. Can you point me to a single piece of real world Red-derived footage I can actually view in real world environment?

I personally have had over thirty years of listening to the gushing of video enthusiasts who are in dire need of the services of an optician or a psychiatrist (or possibly both).

Edited by Keith Walters, 07 April 2008 - 07:11 AM.

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#6 Chad Stockfleth

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 08:25 AM

I'm with Josh on this one. People come and try to talk about real experiences with the camera and it is still quick to disintegrate into the usual petty argument type of thread. There are a few people specifically who are doing this and I wish the moderator would intervene.

This has always IMO been the most professional board for DP's so I'd like to see everyone act as professionals and use a bit of restraint/civility when posting here.
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#7 Michael Peploe

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 08:27 AM

Well then put your money where your mouth is. Add it. Post it. It won't cost you anything. What are you waiting for?

Until we have some hard evidence (apart from a couple of "set pieces" from the usual suspects), people are going to continue to be skeptical about the RED. Can you point me to a single piece of real world Red-derived footage I can actually view in real world environment?

I personally have had over thirty years of listening to the gushing of video enthusiasts who are in dire need of the services of an optician or a psychiatrist (or possibly both).


Here is a site where REd owners upload Red footage for you to download. In R3D, DPX,Tiff and smaller video files, free. You can view and tweak to your hearts content. But I somehow feel that 'real world environment' ( whatever that means) is a loophole you set up and this still won't be satisfactory.

http://www.redrelay.net/index.htm
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#8 Jamie Lewis

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 08:31 AM

Here is a site where REd owners upload Red footage for you to download. In R3D, DPX,Tiff and smaller video files, free. You can view and tweak to your hearts content. But I somehow feel that 'real world environment' ( whatever that means) is a loophole you set up and this still won't be satisfactory.

http://www.redrelay.net/index.htm


Thanks for the link!
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#9 Michael Peploe

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 09:01 AM

I'm with Josh on this one. People come and try to talk about real experiences with the camera and it is still quick to disintegrate into the usual petty argument type of thread. There are a few people specifically who are doing this and I wish the moderator would intervene.

This has always IMO been the most professional board for DP's so I'd like to see everyone act as professionals and use a bit of restraint/civility when posting here.


With all due respect Chad some of the vitriol isn't unwarranted. The Rodney West thread is a perfect example. He posts 'Best key ever', then when you and others asks questions, nothing, zip, silence.

Whats wrong with not letting this forum devolve into another reduser? We all want professional discussion but why side with the people who just seem to want to convert people not based on fact but simply because they have found religion.
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#10 Chad Stockfleth

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 09:08 AM

Whats wrong with not letting this forum devolve into another reduser? We all want professional discussion but why side with the people who just seem to want to convert people not based on fact but simply because they have found religion.


I totally agree with you. I've been skeptical too, and I still feel I was in the right, but I hate to see someone come along and try to report an actual experience with the camera only for it to turn into name calling by the 3rd reply.
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#11 Michael Peploe

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 10:44 AM

I totally agree with you. I've been skeptical too, and I still feel I was in the right, but I hate to see someone come along and try to report an actual experience with the camera only for it to turn into name calling by the 3rd reply.


Agreed. Some are too quick on the trigger. Let me say that posting 'best ______ ever' without backup will get you nowhere here and thats okay with me because I believe when the REd gets more accepted this site will be one of the best places to get unbiased facts. Not being a skeptic myself on the RED, i will wait. I think jannard is waiting too, thats why he keeps coming back.
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#12 Rodney West

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 11:04 AM

With all due respect Chad some of the vitriol isn't unwarranted. The Rodney West thread is a perfect example. He posts 'Best key ever', then when you and others asks questions, nothing, zip, silence.


Hey please don't drag me into this. I asked questions and all I got was a bunch of bullshit girl school fighting.

Some of us professionals don't post our clients footage without approval.
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#13 Stephen Williams

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 11:16 AM

Some of us professionals don't post our clients footage without approval.


Hi Rodney,

Please ask your clients if you can post a frame.

Stephen
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#14 Lance Flores

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 11:59 AM

Thought I'd check in and see if anything has changed. Evidently not, but here's some leads to reliable information on RED productions. Our DP for The Black Messiah Murders which we begin pre-production this week, has already shot a feature film with the RED and is presently on his second RED feature film Montana Amazon http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1208711/ . I am not sold on the RED for our production but Jim thinks with the additional updates it will do a fine job. I am hedging my bet, tentatively scheduling cameras intended for a different picture (for a shoot in London/Ethiopia) or going to a 2 perf 35 for this film, just in case I'm not convinced about the RED.

I don't see how anyone expects to take anything seriously unless they have access to the screening room for the rushes of production shoots. This is why we are asking Grace & Wild to build a screening room so we can view 2K & 4K our rushes from post system. What people hope to get from extremely compressed, dithered, and very optimized data I can't imagine. There is so much noise from processing error and anomalies it is impossible to make anything but a speculative judgment. You can get a general feel from 720 or HD. Even when I gone from 2K proxy viewing to a 2k view of a 4K 12/14 bit color depth raw processed image I am overwhelmed by the difference. The only thing I believe is valuable on this forum are actual reports of production experiences with the camera.

Geezz guys, give it a rest. You need to get information from experienced credible DP's who are pushing the camera limits on the set and can provide objective critique of the product.



I totally agree with you. I've been skeptical too, and I still feel I was in the right, but I hate to see someone come along and try to report an actual experience with the camera only for it to turn into name calling by the 3rd reply.


Edited by Lance Flores, 07 April 2008 - 12:04 PM.

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#15 Michael Peploe

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 12:20 PM

Hey please don't drag me into this. I asked questions and all I got was a bunch of bullshit girl school fighting.

Some of us professionals don't post our clients footage without approval.


Rodney I'm just going with the facts. You posted you pulled the best key ever. Your words. But there are 3 or 4 people that asked you questions about that statement aside from the antagonizers ,who you could have ignored, and you chose to answer the antagonizers instead. I'm not trying to antagonize you Rodney but you started the thread, you got offended, came back when some people graciously tried to buffer the thing. Now you call it bulls**t girlfighting. The only one acting like a 'girl' is you, respectfully.

All you had to do was answer the question. If you can't post footage thats no excuse. Explain yourself thats all. The fact that you didn't offer any explanation caused this not me.
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#16 Rodney West

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 12:27 PM

Hi Rodney,

Please ask your clients if you can post a frame.

Stephen



Fair enough, I just asked. I doubt I will get a yes but I have the feeling a picture may be worth a thousand words.

And for the record, I think many agree that I am not the only bitchy girl here.
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#17 Michael Peploe

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 12:29 PM

Thought I'd check in and see if anything has changed. Evidently not, but here's some leads to reliable information on RED productions. Our DP for The Black Messiah Murders which we begin pre-production this week, has already shot a feature film with the RED and is presently on his second RED feature film Montana Amazon http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1208711/ . I am not sold on the RED for our production but Jim thinks with the additional updates it will do a fine job. I am hedging my bet, tentatively scheduling cameras intended for a different picture (for a shoot in London/Ethiopia) or going to a 2 perf 35 for this film, just in case I'm not convinced about the RED.

I don't see how anyone expects to take anything seriously unless they have access to the screening room for the rushes of production shoots. This is why we are asking Grace & Wild to build a screening room so we can view 2K & 4K our rushes from post system. What people hope to get from extremely compressed, dithered, and very optimized data I can't imagine. There is so much noise from processing error and anomalies it is impossible to make anything but a speculative judgment. You can get a general feel from 720 or HD. Even when I gone from 2K proxy viewing to a 2k view of a 4K 12/14 bit color depth raw processed image I am overwhelmed by the difference. The only thing I believe is valuable on this forum are actual reports of production experiences with the camera.

Geezz guys, give it a rest. You need to get information from experienced credible DP's who are pushing the camera limits on the set and can provide objective critique of the product.


Now this is the kind of elitist junk that wastes more forum space
All i need is to get experienced DP's to give me the answers. Well then lets sit and wait for the final word from these experienced DP's.god forbid any individual who isn't has anything valuable to say.

Redcode raw files are available in the link I posted. They are there for you to play with. They are raw files not compressed ( other than the cams wavelet cpmress), dithered or other wise. Just what the cam put out. Play with them and see what you get. Lance you can wait for the screening room to get built and the experienced dp's to tell you what to think.

Edited by Michael Peploe, 07 April 2008 - 12:32 PM.

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#18 Lance Flores

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 12:48 PM

Now this is the kind of elitist junk that wastes more forum space
All i need is to get experienced DP's to give me the answers. Well then lets sit and wait for the final word from these experienced DP's.god forbid any individual who isn't has anything valuable to say.

Redcode raw files are available in the link I posted. They are there for you to play with. They are raw files not compressed ( other than the cams wavelet cpmress), dithered or other wise. Just what the cam put out. Play with them and see what you get. Lance you can wait for the screening room to get built and the experienced dp's to tell you what to think.




About what I expected. Take everything out of context so you can whine a little more. If your read the post you would have known that Jim had already shot a feature film and is on his second with the RED. Purchase or rent a camera and satisfy you self to your own expectations. I can't afford not to have a well experienced professional give me an evaluation. I'm responsible for other peoples investments.
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#19 John Holland

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 12:48 PM

i have always tried to stay out of this bitchy Red stuff , but i dont want a see a frame on my 19" computer screen i want to a see a film out on a 40' wide screen . It should be a digital projection but it wont be because there arnt enough cinemas with that option so i have to compare Red [ DI out film ] with a 35mm the same . Until then all this talk is just really poop !! .
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#20 Michael Peploe

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Posted 07 April 2008 - 01:35 PM

About what I expected. Take everything out of context so you can whine a little more. If your read the post you would have known that Jim had already shot a feature film and is on his second with the RED. Purchase or rent a camera and satisfy you self to your own expectations. I can't afford not to have a well experienced professional give me an evaluation. I'm responsible for other peoples investments.


About what i expected too. Your first and second post a snobbish whine. And if you bothered to read my other posts I regularly rent the REd and like the Red images.

Edited by Michael Peploe, 07 April 2008 - 01:35 PM.

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