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More real-world examples...


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#1 Emanuel A Guedes

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 09:30 PM

Beyond the usual names already well known, here's more one adding his signature to the gallery:

Darius Khondji (DoP of Se7en)

Posted Image

Taken at an Old Navy shoot in Buenos Aires.

Photo courtesy of Radiant Images
redcamerarentals.com

Posted on reduser.net
http://www.reduser.n...2574#post192574

This post should be dedicated to Jim... sorry, I mean not Jannard nor Murdoch, to Keith. :lol: It's all up to you!
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#2 Emanuel A Guedes

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 09:33 PM

And here's another one starring Michael Douglas:

http://www.imdb.com/...83251/technical

Peter Hyams, DoP/Director
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#3 Keith Walters

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 10:52 PM

All I can say is that some people's concept of "real" is well, unique.
I know there are any number of websites where you can download sample RED footage, but you are only ever going to be able to download what somebody wants you to download. I would like to see an hour or so of continuous footage on a TV or Cinema screen, not be directed to an endless series of bandwidth-hogging downloads that will require me to upgrade my internet connection.
The road to the supposed death of film is littered with the bodies of video fanboys who grew overheated at the excellence of their video on a 14 inch screen, only to be devastated when they saw the same footage on a 14 METRE screen.

Edited by Keith Walters, 10 April 2008 - 10:55 PM.

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#4 Emanuel A Guedes

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:00 AM

All I can say is that some people's concept of "real" is well, unique.
I know there are any number of websites where you can download sample RED footage, but you are only ever going to be able to download what somebody wants you to download. I would like to see an hour or so of continuous footage on a TV or Cinema screen (...)

You'll see, you'll see. Is there any other camera out there that had came out so early on the screen such as it SHALL happen now with RED? Here's the "real-world concept" (actually, brought by you in these same boards), well, for some people. :lol:

[EDIT]

(...) not be directed to an endless series of bandwidth-hogging downloads that will require me to upgrade my internet connection.
The road to the supposed death of film is littered with the bodies of video fanboys who grew overheated at the excellence of their video on a 14 inch screen, only to be devastated when they saw the same footage on a 14 METRE screen.

I would like to believe that this "thing" between "video" vs. "film" is just a way of past or between "geek types" (digital vs. film) or yet "fanboys" (RED vs. film), as you wish. When any new tools are introduced. Beyond any kind of technology (based on), we're just talking about moving images, right? I appreciate indeed the "motion picture" use as the most common sense notion for distinctive sort of blow-ups on the screen but not based on technology, for Christ's sake !! No matter the medium. Perhaps, the content ?!...

Edited by Emanuel A Guedes, 11 April 2008 - 12:04 AM.

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#5 Keith Walters

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:30 AM

You'll see, you'll see. Is there any other camera out there that had came out so early on the screen such as it SHALL happen now with RED? Here's the "real-world concept" (actually, brought by you in these same boards), well, for some people. :lol:

[EDIT]


I would like to believe that this "thing" between "video" vs. "film" is just a way of past or between "geek types" (digital vs. film) or yet "fanboys" (RED vs. film), as you wish. When any new tools are introduced. Beyond any kind of technology (based on), we're just talking about moving images, right? I appreciate indeed the "motion picture" use as the most common sense notion for distinctive sort of blow-ups on the screen but not based on technology, for Christ's sake !! No matter the medium. Perhaps, the content ?!...

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say.
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#6 Emanuel A Guedes

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:59 AM

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say.

:lol: Old argument (or no argument?) "Jim"..., (so) old like your beard... ;)

EDIT -- BTW, I loved the way you typed that "trying" before that "to say"... you cannot mask your boring... LOL

Edited by Emanuel A Guedes, 11 April 2008 - 01:02 AM.

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#7 Emanuel A Guedes

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 01:14 AM

... you cannot mask your boring... LOL

My favorite one :rolleyes: :

"Boredom, boring, bored: A chosen state of mind brought on by laziness and the firm belief that others are in charge of the so supposedly afflicted person's own entertainment."

http://www.geocities...erminology.html
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 01:22 AM

Looks like a RED LCD is hanging from a cable on the right side of the camera, any idea why?

Stephen
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#9 Jim Jannard

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 01:33 AM

Looks like a RED LCD is hanging from a cable on the right side of the camera, any idea why?

Stephen


Looks like it wasn't being used...

Jim
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#10 Stephen Williams

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 01:46 AM

Looks like it wasn't being used...

Jim


Jim,

Looks like the cable is well made!

Stephen
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#11 Keith Walters

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 02:08 AM

My favorite one :rolleyes: :

"Boredom, boring, bored: A chosen state of mind brought on by laziness and the firm belief that others are in charge of the so supposedly afflicted person's own entertainment."

http://www.geocities...erminology.html

Does anybody have any idea what this man is talking about?
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#12 Robert Torrance

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 02:19 AM

Jim,

Looks like the cable is well made!

Stephen



That cable is a new 4k digital cable that will replace a film cable. This thread is funny. You've got the best DPs in the business already testing and using the camera and still people go on and on and......... Give someone a chance to finish a film and then go see it - then make your comments. So there are a lot of fanboys - big deal. It's a new type of camera and it's a clever idea that seems to work pretty well.


Bob Torrance
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#13 Stephen Williams

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 02:28 AM

Hi Bob,

Guess you don't get the importance of quality cables.

The best DP's in the world have also used Sony F900 cameras, Sony went on to build better cameras based on what they were told.

Red's new PL mount is a vast improvement over the original, had they got no negative feedback then I am sure the new one would not have happened.

Stephen

That cable is a new 4k digital cable that will replace a film cable. This thread is funny. You've got the best DPs in the business already testing and using the camera and still people go on and on and......... Give someone a chance to finish a film and then go see it - then make your comments. So there are a lot of fanboys - big deal. It's a new type of camera and it's a clever idea that seems to work pretty well.


Bob Torrance


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#14 Jim Jannard

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 02:32 AM

All I can say is that some people's concept of "real" is well, unique.
I know there are any number of websites where you can download sample RED footage, but you are only ever going to be able to download what somebody wants you to download. I would like to see an hour or so of continuous footage on a TV or Cinema screen, not be directed to an endless series of bandwidth-hogging downloads that will require me to upgrade my internet connection.
The road to the supposed death of film is littered with the bodies of video fanboys who grew overheated at the excellence of their video on a 14 inch screen, only to be devastated when they saw the same footage on a 14 METRE screen.


Keith... you know how long it takes from shooting a movie until theater release. Soderbergh's two movies (Ché) will be released in a couple of months. They were shot last year on prototype pre-production cameras. He is shooting The Informant (Matt Damon) starting next month. You won't see that movie until the beginning of next year. Peter Hyams (Beyond A Reasonable Doubt) Starring Michael Douglas, is wrapping now. You won't see that for many months. Since the official 1st ship date was just 7 months ago, what would you expect to see on the big screen? There are now over 30 features being shot on RED. It is unreasonable to expect that any of them would be in theaters next month. But you know that.

Jim
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#15 David Sweetman

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 03:35 AM

Yeah, additional "something new?? F*** that!" comment.

(sarcasm, said the man who was rubbing magnets on videotape for fun,)

looks like Red is being used, congrats Jim. Never doubted the camera, but never expected it to attract such big names off the bat either. I'm looking forward to Soderbergh's films for sure, but I'm even more looking forward to the Bujalski-type films the camera might encourage.

Probably be years before I get to mess around with the camera myself though...

Also, some people's concept of the Real is indeed unique: Look at Lacan. that dude was crzy.
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#16 Emanuel A Guedes

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 03:35 AM

Does anybody have any idea what this man is talking about?

:lol: Yes, do it. Ask help!... (Hey, and it was Jim answering your call... LOL)

Here's another one:

"crutch: Just as in waking life, the dream crutch represents support and assistance. It may be an emotional crutch, a spiritual one or even a psychological prop used to improperly inflate the ego or, to artificially assist one in their views."

http://www.katiestan...dd/c.htm#crutch

I'm sorry if it's too much for you but... you are a poster after the modern era (= modernity) have came to the storytelling. Or, at least, it should be for anyone over here. After all, more than a forum about technology, this is a forum about cinematography or am I missing something? ;) There, you can find something denominated by "Reception Aesthetics" also called "Reception Theory". Maybe you should read something on subject instead the usual white papers.

BTW -- part II, I noticed a new introduction on your vocabulary on commenting or referring to this "man" here... so don't ask me to repeat or reiterate myself:
http://www.cinematog...n...st&p=226586

Or you would have to change your user name once again. And then, it wouldn't be so clear to follow all posts exchanged between us since two years ago.
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#17 Keith Walters

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 06:30 AM

Keith... you know how long it takes from shooting a movie until theater release. Soderbergh's two movies (Ché) will be released in a couple of months. They were shot last year on prototype pre-production cameras. He is shooting The Informant (Matt Damon) starting next month. You won't see that movie until the beginning of next year. Peter Hyams (Beyond A Reasonable Doubt) Starring Michael Douglas, is wrapping now. You won't see that for many months. Since the official 1st ship date was just 7 months ago, what would you expect to see on the big screen? There are now over 30 features being shot on RED. It is unreasonable to expect that any of them would be in theaters next month. But you know that.

Jim

Most REDs are not being used to shoot movies, just as most movie film is not used to shoot movies. But you know that.

Doesn't have to be on the big screen. I have no doubt the RED produces far more resolution than broadcast HDTV needs. If you had been paying attention you would have noticed that I have even defended the case for Bayer reconstruction on this forum, flying in the face of certain wildlife experts and other luminaries.

There is something that appears to have escaped many people's notice here and elsewhere: there is no film at the back of your eyeballs. There is no CMOS sensor on your retina. The beautifully focussed full colour 3-D view you have of the world is an illusion. It is entirely constructed inside your brain from the unbelievably limited amount of information that your eyes provide.

But as long as the image on the screen is able to provide all the information that your eyes can process, you will see a high resolution image. The image does not exactly have to duplicate reality. 4:2:2 video is not an exact depiction of reality but I am damned sure you would not be able to tell the difference. This is why standard definition TV can appear to carry nearly twice the resolution that theory predicts, using modern signal processing techniques. That is why HDTV cameras make such excellent SD cameras. And why the RED should make a superb HDTV camera. Which is why I and many others are surprised there is no live 1920 x 1080 HD output. Sooner rather than later, someone is going to make a similar competing product that does. (And as like as not, with signal processing circutiry that does not run like the top of a stove.)

But I am not primarily interested in resolution, although that is important for cinema release. I am mainly interested in the dynamic range of your otherwise excellent product. And that's dynamic range when somebody is told: "Shoot this, and this, and this and this", not: "Go and find something pretty to shoot than the camera can handle".

The main giveaway between video derived from film and video derived from silicon is the percentage of the pixels that are bleached white and carry no information. Advertisers have to pay good money for every pixel that gets broadcast. They resent having to pay for peak white pixels that carry no information. Same goes for cinema patrons.

When you are claiming 66dB (about 11 stops) dynamic range, and people who have used the camera are claiming only 6 stops well, what exactly am I to believe? OK, maybe it does do 11 stops, other cameras can, so why not yours? But why would they say 6 stops? About what you would get from an old Image Orthicon B&W camera with a new tube if you were lucky? Don't think so. So I am going to be doing my own tests by and by, and then I will **know**.

Regarding your comment about film lead time, I was actually responding to the numerous people here and elsewhere somewhat rudely informing me that "enormous" amounts of RED footage intended for TV broadcast are already out there. In the system. On the air.

But when I ask for details I simply get double talk. The "large amount" of Red footage on Australian TV suddenly dwindled to just two commercial spots. I could only find one, and the post production quality on that was so bad it might as well have been shot with Phil Rhode's famous cellphone camera. And I still have no idea which bits were shot with the RED.

Yes, I have downloaded samples of RED footage. But I am not made of money. I can think of better things to spend money on than Internet plans with enormous download allocations, just so I can download ultra-HD pictures of people's pets. I do have a life.

Yes, some of what I saw is very impressive. So sometimes are the pictures from my cellphone camera (considering what it is). So is the live HD from channel 7 Sydney's news room. Some of it was downright ordinary. So is some of the other footage emanating from the Sydney newsroom.

I do not particularly need to see RED footage on a cinema screen, although that is obviously important. By chance, a brand new theatre complex has just opened up only a short distance from here, with state of the art (whatever that means) digital projection facilities, so these new films should get every chance of a fair viewing.

But I have been down this road too many times before. Nothing really surprises me in the film industry any more, apart perhaps from the fact that films actually get made at all!

But you know that.
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#18 Ignacio Barrera

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 07:58 AM

First post.

Emanuel, are you a crazy person?

:)
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#19 Tom Lowe

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 01:47 PM

Wow, Keith, you've got to be kidding (or trolling) with these nonsensical rants. Talk about dead-enders. You're like the last Japanese soldiers stranded on those islands in the Pacific in the late 40s thinking the war was still going on. The capabilities and limits of the RED camera are widely discussed and available - moreso each day. 6 stops? Lol.
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#20 JJDeRiomol

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 02:47 PM

Again about the same...as much toys to play, more fun!

Let's see what they can do, and let's try to make it better or learn about it, who cares with what!
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