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Does HVX200E shoot 24p in 1080i?


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#1 Ismail Jamaludin

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 06:40 AM

Hey fellas',

I've been toying with my friend's HVX200 and we've been trying to figure out how to shoot 24p in 1080i. Sorry if this is such a noob question, but keep in mind I've only touched the beautiful thing once.

So does it shoot in 24p in 1080i?

Cheers,
Ismail.
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#2 Michael Nash

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 01:34 PM

I Googled "Panasonic HVX200" and the first result is Panasonic's page:

http://catalog2.pana...delNo=AG-HVX200

It should tell you everything you need to know.

You can record 24P onto 1080/60i with a 3:2 pulldown or "advanced" pulldown.
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#3 Jim Keller

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 01:39 PM

Hey fellas',

I've been toying with my friend's HVX200 and we've been trying to figure out how to shoot 24p in 1080i. Sorry if this is such a noob question, but keep in mind I've only touched the beautiful thing once.

So does it shoot in 24p in 1080i?

Cheers,
Ismail.


Um, I assume you're asking if it does 24p in 1080 mode. The "p" in 24p stands for progressive. The "i" in 1080i stands for interlaced. If it's shooting in 24p mode, it is not shooting in 1080i mode.

We've been using this camera for about a year now, and I have to tell you that despite what the online specs tell you, it does not have a true progressive mode in 1080. It's all done with frame interpolation based on the interlaced images. It's an excellent 720p camera, however.
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#4 John Sprung

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 01:43 PM

It's a 960 x 540 photosite chip. Everything it outputs is upconverted in the camera.




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#5 Michael Nash

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:05 PM

The "i" in 1080i stands for interlaced. If it's shooting in 24p mode, it is not shooting in 1080i mode.

...It's all done with frame interpolation based on the interlaced images


Are you sure you're not confusing interpolation with pulldown?

If it works like all other Panasonic devices, it's capturing 24 progressive images and adding a 3:2 pulldown to record them as 60i. The 24P"A" option even makes it easier to restore a 1080/24p timeline in Final Cut Pro by removing the repeated fields.

http://shop.panasoni...072005012903035

Interpolation is when you start with an interlaced image and "compute" or "interpret" what a progressive frame should look like, based on the pixels in both fields.
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#6 Jim Keller

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 02:35 PM

Are you sure you're not confusing interpolation with pulldown?

If it works like all other Panasonic devices, it's capturing 24 progressive images and adding a 3:2 pulldown to record them as 60i. The 24P"A" option even makes it easier to restore a 1080/24p timeline in Final Cut Pro by removing the repeated fields.

http://shop.panasoni...072005012903035

Interpolation is when you start with an interlaced image and "compute" or "interpret" what a progressive frame should look like, based on the pixels in both fields.


That's how the 720p works, yes. The 1080p modes are, in fact, interpolated off of a 1080i image. At least in the generation camera we're using here.
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#7 Michael Nash

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 03:10 PM

That's how the 720p works, yes. The 1080p modes are, in fact, interpolated off of a 1080i image. At least in the generation camera we're using here.


Is it interpolated from a 60i image, or a "48i" image? That would make a huge difference in quality. How have you determined this, and what artifacts or evidence have you noticed in 24p/1080 60i? Does it present any problems when using the 24p"A" pulldown to create a 1080 24p timeline in post?

I've used the camera many times, but always in the 720pN mode. I realize it's all uprezed from 540x960.
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#8 Jim Keller

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 03:34 PM

Is it interpolated from a 60i image, or a "48i" image? That would make a huge difference in quality. How have you determined this, and what artifacts or evidence have you noticed in 24p/1080 60i? Does it present any problems when using the 24p"A" pulldown to create a 1080 24p timeline in post?

I've used the camera many times, but always in the 720pN mode. I realize it's all uprezed from 540x960.


Unfortunately, our English-language copies of the documentation appear to be MIA at the moment, so I can't look it up again. It was one of the first things we looked up in the white papers when we got the first of our two cameras, in determining which shooting mode we wanted to use. Upon realizing that all the 1080 modes were actually interlaced, we discounted it as an acceptable mode (and didn't think about it again). My guess is that it's probably a 30i/60p mode and a 24i/48p mode, both scanning 540 and offsetting, because that would be consistent with how the camera works in its other modes. The 1080p modes are then most likely every other frame interpolated up. But, again, I'm not looking at the white papers, so that's a guess.

We generally shoot 720 24pN. Excellent balance of quality and file size. And while I was initially ticked off when we read that it was actually interpolated from a 540-line chip (again, that fact is well hidden before you buy it), I have to say I have never seen an artifact, and I habitually resize for my one series. My biggest issue is that the 4:2:2 compression means my green screen work isn't as clean as it could be (exacerbated by the fact that I'll always choose to light my talent properly even if it will make pulling the key harder, and our "studio" is way too small to be doing greenscreen work), but for the price it's a camera that can't be beat.

Edited by Jim Keller, 17 April 2008 - 03:35 PM.

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#9 Michael Nash

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 05:04 PM

I guess I'm not understanding. Don't you mean 24p/48i and 30p/60i (24 frames constructed from 48 interlaced fields; 30 frames constructed from 60 interlaced fields)?

I can understand if the camera is actually scanning at 48Hz. and 60Hz. and interpolating fields to construct progressive frames at 24 and 30 fps, respectively. But if the camera can scan and "upshift" to 720p at 48Hz., why would it need to scan at 60Hz. to upshift to 1080? As I understand it, in 24p mode the camera is always using the same "up-shifted" 1080 24p images (540x960 is exactly half 1080x1920) and recording them as either 720 24p, 720 60p (adding redundant frames), or 1080 60i (adding pulldown). That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than the camera having to interpolate 60 to 24 and re-add pulldown to construct 60i. As far as I know the only reason 1080 is recorded as 60i and not 24p on this camera is because that's all the DVCPRO HD codec will support. DVCPRO HD only supports 24p Native at 720, which is why the real-time variable frame rates are only available at 720, and only in the "Native" mode.

If it's true that both the 720 and 1080 images are being scanned at 48 Hz., then the 1080 24p frames should just be as effectively "progressive" as the 720 24p images. It's only the recording pulldown that's different.

Edited by Michael Nash, 17 April 2008 - 05:42 PM.

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#10 Jim Keller

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 06:04 PM

As far as I know the only reason 1080 is recorded as 60i and not 24p on this camera is because that's all the DVCPRO HD codec will support.


Now that's entirely possible. I speaking out of year-old memory, which I freely admit will often result in mush...
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#11 Michael Nash

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 06:15 PM

Now that's entirely possible. I speaking out of year-old memory, which I freely admit will often result in mush...


Just trying to clarify. You might be able to get a little more "Oomph" out of your camera than you realize! ;)

Try shooting 1080 24p"A" and remove the pulldown in post, if your edit system supports that. The tad bit more resolution might help with your keys. Also, shooting standard def in the DVCPRO 50 codec is less compressed than HD in DVCPRO HD, offering a potentially cleaner key but lower resolution.
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#12 Tim O'Connor

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 10:23 PM

Is it interpolated from a 60i image, or a "48i" image? That would make a huge difference in quality. How have you determined this, and what artifacts or evidence have you noticed in 24p/1080 60i? Does it present any problems when using the 24p"A" pulldown to create a 1080 24p timeline in post?

I've used the camera many times, but always in the 720pN mode. I realize it's all uprezed from 540x960.




Why do you always shoot in 720pN mode? I do too, unless as often happens somebody asks for 1080.

I realize that there many potential answers to this question, along a broad spectrum from being pragmatic (more time on cards) to feelings
about the look of different modes. Is it your clients or type of work or your feelings about the look?
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#13 Tim O'Connor

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 10:29 PM

Unfortunately, our English-language copies of the documentation appear to be MIA at the moment, so I can't look it up again. It was one of the first things we looked up in the white papers when we got the first of our two cameras, in determining which shooting mode we wanted to use. Upon realizing that all the 1080 modes were actually interlaced, we discounted it as an acceptable mode (and didn't think about it again). My guess is that it's probably a 30i/60p mode and a 24i/48p mode, both scanning 540 and offsetting, because that would be consistent with how the camera works in its other modes. The 1080p modes are then most likely every other frame interpolated up. But, again, I'm not looking at the white papers, so that's a guess.

We generally shoot 720 24pN. Excellent balance of quality and file size. And while I was initially ticked off when we read that it was actually interpolated from a 540-line chip (again, that fact is well hidden before you buy it), I have to say I have never seen an artifact, and I habitually resize for my one series. My biggest issue is that the 4:2:2 compression means my green screen work isn't as clean as it could be (exacerbated by the fact that I'll always choose to light my talent properly even if it will make pulling the key harder, and our "studio" is way too small to be doing greenscreen work), but for the price it's a camera that can't be beat.



When you say that you habitually resize for your series, do you mean that you'll get a close-up or a tighter shot by blowing up the picture a bit?
I do that sometimes in Final Cut Pro but I'm wondering if you mean that or something else. If you do mean blowing up the picture, do you have any special
software? I sometimes just go from 100 to 110 or 120 which works pretty well and can get something out of the edge of a shot without hurting the image (don't know about on a big theater screen but on everything else looks okay)but I know that some people
do use such software. In fact, I think that there's one called "Resizer".
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#14 Michael Nash

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 10:59 PM

Why do you always shoot in 720pN mode? I do too, unless as often happens somebody asks for 1080.

I realize that there many potential answers to this question, along a broad spectrum from being pragmatic (more time on cards) to feelings
about the look of different modes. Is it your clients or type of work or your feelings about the look?


Mostly to be able to utilize the variable frame rates, but also to streamline the post and storage (no need to remove pulldowns, etc.).
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#15 Tim O'Connor

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 12:36 AM

Mostly to be able to utilize the variable frame rates, but also to streamline the post and storage (no need to remove pulldowns, etc.).



Yeah, me too. Before I bought my camera, I heard about the frame rates and thought cool, but I wish that it could overcrank more, say up
to 96 f.p.s..

I've shot some stuff at 60 f.p.s. that has stunned me. I did a scene at a beach in winter with the wind blowing through golden (I call it sea grass, the stuff
that grows right near the beach) and I still go back to look at it because it's so gorgeous. Snow on the beach, brilliant blue sky, sun out. All I did was aim the camera and hit the button.
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