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#1 Allen Achterberg

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 10:24 AM

If jim was smart, I think it'd be wise to make some affordable 35mm/S16mm Film scanners that support the 4k resolution, also support 4prf/3prf/ and 2/prf then He'd be making cash on both ends video AND film.


if I were He, I would do it.

do it jim, so I can use my 35mm camera with Solid Functioning PL mounts and get my DI done at home!
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#2 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 10:36 AM

There is already is 4k scanner made by Kinetta.

http://www.kinetta.c...4K_Brochure.pdf

However this is a niche market for a manufacturer and I would doubt the economics buying one for a one off film.
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#3 Allen Achterberg

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 10:51 AM

There is already is 4k scanner made by Kinetta.

http://www.kinetta.c...4K_Brochure.pdf

However this is a niche market for a manufacturer and I would doubt the economics buying one for a one off film.



uhh, thats pretty cool. Affordable? I'd be down.


I just thought since Jims been so busy with a new Chopper, 5k camera and scarlet that while he's at it he should broaden his horizons a bit. Dip into the film thing.

Shi...I bet he makes one....

yep...I'm halfway serious about this post. Not completely though.

Thanks Brian.
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#4 Max Jacoby

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 11:13 AM

Filmscanners are a very different beast than a digital camera. For one they need a highly precise movement that runs the film through the machine.
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#5 Radoslav Karapetkov

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 11:31 AM

There was a topic at RedUser for potentially adapting a RED One camera to become a 4K film scanner. Cannot find it, though.
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#6 Emanuel A Guedes

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 11:50 AM

There was a topic at RedUser for potentially adapting a RED One camera to become a 4K film scanner. Cannot find it, though.

http://www.reduser.n...hread.php?t=460
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#7 Radoslav Karapetkov

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 11:54 AM

Thant's the one, thanks.
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#8 chuck colburn

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 12:54 PM

Mitchell movements (sliding pin registration) have been used in film chains but I believe a fixed pin shuttle type movement ( Bell & Howell 2709) adapts easier to thru the gate projection. It has always been considered the best form of registration for sprockted film. And is easier to make then a Mitchell type movement. Good for about 32 or so frames per second.
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#9 Sam Wells

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 01:07 PM

I can already hear the "is it really a 4K scan or is it a 3.2 / 3 / 2.8 k scan arguments...."


i suggested last year you think about swapping out what is essentially a camera section of a Sony Vialta with a Red.

Put a reworked Red Epic in there...

(I'm at least semi-serious !)

-Sam
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#10 John Sprung

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 03:01 PM

Pin registered transfer is really only necessary for effects. You don't even need an intermittent to do telecine. Everything from Spirits back to the earliest Ranks use continuous film movement, and scan one line at a time.

BTW, I think Jim is smart, and will probably realize that he has plenty on his plate, and leave telecine alone.





-- J.S.
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#11 Chris Kenny

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 03:56 PM

Red's business model seems to based in large part around making stuff cheaper and selling it in higher volumes. Because of the fairly high cost of shooting and processing film in the first place, the number of customers for a film scanner probably wouldn't be all that much higher simply because you reduced the cost of the device; reducing the cost of the device wouldn't make the end-to-end process all that much cheaper.
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#12 tylerhawes

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 01:10 AM

The camera section is a relatively small part of a scanner or telecine's cost.
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#13 Keith Walters

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 07:23 AM

Pin registered transfer is really only necessary for effects. You don't even need an intermittent to do telecine. Everything from Spirits back to the earliest Ranks use continuous film movement, and scan one line at a time.

BTW, I think Jim is smart, and will probably realize that he has plenty on his plate, and leave telecine alone.

-- J.S.

As far as I am aware, all Rank machines used raster-based "flying spot" scanning with intermittent film movement. That is, a raster generated on a farly conventional CRT is focussed onto the film, and photocells record the variations in brightness, to produce a video signal.

One of my regular jobs on a Rank Ursa telecine used to be to check and adjust the CRT's heater voltage :lol:

Flying spot telecines had a lot of advantages.
Changing the scanning to cope with different film gauges and shooting formats was very simple, and some Rank machines could duplicate the effects available from early (and very expensive) machines such as the Quantel Mirage, for negligible extra cost.
Apart from this, most of the early CCD-based telecines produced terrible "plastic-ey looking" pictures.

However, CRT-based telecines were simply not good enough for HDTV, which is the main reason they fell by the wayside.
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#14 Keith Walters

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 07:26 AM

Mitchell movements (sliding pin registration) have been used in film chains but I believe a fixed pin shuttle type movement ( Bell & Howell 2709) adapts easier to thru the gate projection. It has always been considered the best form of registration for sprockted film. And is easier to make then a Mitchell type movement. Good for about 32 or so frames per second.

I wonder how practical it would be to make an illuminated pressure plate and a relay lens assembly that could turn a movie camera into a telecine :rolleyes:
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#15 John Sprung

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 02:57 PM

As far as I am aware, all Rank machines used raster-based "flying spot" scanning with intermittent film movement. That is, a raster generated on a farly conventional CRT is focussed onto the film, and photocells record the variations in brightness, to produce a video signal.

....

However, CRT-based telecines were simply not good enough for HDTV, which is the main reason they fell by the wayside.



Actually, it's stranger than that. The CRT based machines did have continuous film movement, and still do. But they couldn't just scan a single line on the tube, that would burn out the phosphor way too fast. So, what they did -- and still do -- is scan in the other direction within each frame, scanning a patch twice as high on the tube, and extracting the image from the film in the *same* direction it's traveling. They sort of chase after the frames at double speed. That's why you'd see the two squashed upside down images with the film stopped.

CRT machines can be plenty good enough for HDTV. Some people prefer them. They take more TLC to keep them going, so the total cost of ownership is higher, which has made them a high end niche product.

Here are the specs on the C-Reality, including continuous film movement:

General
Dimensions Width x height x depth 1650 x 1770 x 910mm
Approximate weight 820kg
Power supply Mains supply 94V - 257V
Power consumption 4.5 kVA
Film Transport System
Film format 16mm, Super 16mm
35mm, Super 35mm
Film drive Continuous motion servo, controlled to provide constant film tension
(tension selectable)
Film type Negatives, Intermediates, Prints
Colour, Black and White
Film gate 16mm : 16mm, Super 16mm
35mm : 35mm, Super 35mm (8,4,3 perf and 2 perf)
Film capacity > 2000ft, 18" diameter
Film frame rate 525 - 5 to 30 fps and 40 to 50 fps (to 60 fps with field per frame option)
625 - 5 to 30 fps and 33 to 50 fps
2K Data, 6-15fps, depending on interface
Built in film counter
4K at 2 seconds per frame
Film Imaging System
Image scanning device High resolution scanning cathode ray tube assembly
Image detection Large area avalanche photodiodes
OLIVER system
Dynamic range 0.0 to >3.3 Density range
14 bit RGB
Image Functions
Image control X-Y pan and zoom
360o rotation
45o X-Y skew
Perspective correction
Scan aspects of 4:3 and 16:9
Anamorphic squeeze
Image control (Colour) Broadband 14 bit digital RGB colour channel
Pre-gamma lift and gain
Gamma control / S gamma
Post gamma lift and gain
6 variable colour vector processing
Isolation: Hue, hue width, saturation & luminance isolation
Effect: Hue, saturation and luminance control
12 bit RGB aperture correction +/- 12dB
625/ 525 reference frame-store
Vertical and horizontal wipes.
Output blanking for letterbox formats.
Outputs Serial digital 10 bit linear or log switchable
4:4:4 RGB, 4:2:2 Y.Cr.Cb
625/50, 525/60 CCIR 601/656
1080i (50/59/60)
1080p 24sF
1080p 24F
720p
LVDS data port (requires optional Postware system)
High speed data link (HSDL)
Multi-standard scanner inclusive of C-VIP, 625/50 and 525/60, 720p, 1080i/50/60, 1080p, 24sf video operation,
4:4:4 and 4:2:2 10 bit output. 2K and 4K 14 bit scanning system.



-- J.S.
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#16 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 04:43 PM

CRT machines can be plenty good enough for HDTV. Some people prefer them. They take more TLC to keep them going, so the total cost of ownership is higher, which has made them a high end niche product.



A good CRT scanner like a Millenium or DSX/C-Reality (they share the same basic chassis) or a Nova (I have not seen/used a Nova Personally) is no more or less a hi-end niche product than a Spirit HD/2K/4K or an Arriscan. I have had film I have shot on a Spirit and a DSX in the same facility and there really is not much difference in terms of sharpness or picture quality, they are different but basically equal machines. There are pin registered gate options for the field of modern CRT scanners. I have two Cintel MK3's and have retrofitted them with every possible aftermarket option I could get (from DAV, Metaspeed, etc) and with all the modern bits they are very reliable. A new HD/2K/4K machine will be as reliable as a CCD machine and total cost of ownership is within a few dollars annually.

As to a bayer mask film scanner, I feel it is a good option for an inexpensive telecine replacement but probably cannot match the kind of picture quality a machine like a Arriscan or Millenium can make as they are full bandwidth RGB scanners that extract all of the potential from a film negative.

-Rob-
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#17 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 04:53 PM

One of my regular jobs on a Rank Ursa telecine used to be to check and adjust the CRT's heater voltage :lol:



We have Dave Walker's (DAV now Nova) Digital Deflection systems in our MK3's have all tube parameters under complete automated computer control including heater voltage. I believe later URSA's and all new CRT machines are likewise equipped. The MK3 can actually be a lower noise machine that a ursa because allot of the systems used did not introduce as much digital switching noise into the telecine.


-Rob-
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#18 Keith Walters

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 05:49 AM

We have Dave Walker's (DAV now Nova) Digital Deflection systems in our MK3's have all tube parameters under complete automated computer control including heater voltage. I believe later URSA's and all new CRT machines are likewise equipped. The MK3 can actually be a lower noise machine that a ursa because allot of the systems used did not introduce as much digital switching noise into the telecine.


-Rob-

Is the heater voltage that important?

My involvement with the machine in question was fairly minimal actually. The company who owned it had gone through a bit of a customer relations scandal where a botched scanning job was initially blamed on the supplied film footage. However the customer was able to get a near-faultless transfer on a much cheaper machine elsewhere and came back screaming for blood.

The person responsible for the bungle apparently managed to avoid getting fired by claiming that the CRT heater voltage had been incorrectly set, and so after that it was decreed by those who know nowt but must be obeyed, that before any big job, the voltage must be checked.

However the resident technician maintained that this was utter rot (he was probably right) and there was fear that he may not actually do the measurement, even if he claimed he did.

I used to bit a bit of moonlighting there repairing monitors after hours and they asked me if I could do it when he was not there. And so I did. If I was already there I did it for free, and if I had to come in specially they paid me $50 cash, not bad for two minutes work :lol:

As far as I could see, that adjustment was just to compensate for different mains voltages where the machines happened to be installed. If it was that critical, I would have thought they would have used a regulated power supply. In my experience with both CRTs and vacuum tubes generally +/- 20% variation in the heater voltage seems to have no noticeable effect.


By the way, I am sure the telecine I worked on had registration pins, but perhaps that just keeps the film from weaving, rather than holding it stationary.
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#19 Keith Walters

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 06:30 AM

CRT machines can be plenty good enough for HDTV. Some people prefer them. They take more TLC to keep them going, so the total cost of ownership is higher, which has made them a high end niche product.

Here are the specs on the C-Reality, including continuous film movement:

General
Dimensions Width x height x depth 1650 x 1770 x 910mm
Approximate weight 820kg
Power supply Mains supply 94V - 257V
Power consumption 4.5 kVA...

...High speed data link (HSDL)
Multi-standard scanner inclusive of C-VIP, 625/50 and 525/60, 720p, 1080i/50/60, 1080p, 24sf video operation,
4:4:4 and 4:2:2 10 bit output. 2K and 4K 14 bit scanning system.

-- J.S.


I stand corrected. I also see that CRT-based film printers are still holding their own, with lower cost and faster throughput.

Tubes rule!!

Seriously, it is nice to be able to give the fanboys at least a glimpse of the complexity of the world they think they will be conquering :lol:
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#20 John Brawley

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 07:28 AM

Pin registered transfer is really only necessary for effects. You don't even need an intermittent to do telecine. Everything from Spirits back to the earliest Ranks use continuous film movement, and scan one line at a time.



I was under the impression that the spirit was the first FULL frame ccd (and the Vialta) but other ccd chains were a single line array. ( shadow, marconi etc)

jb
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