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#1 Mike Brennan

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 09:06 AM

RED are about to enable HDSDI 444 RED and the output is progressive and thus pictures can't be recorded on Sony field recorders which at the moment accept psf input only.


In the short to mid term, what 12 volt hardware options exist to convert p to psf in the field?

On the other hand it must be pretty easy for Sony to implement a P input on their decks?

I wonder if the 444 output is derived from a 720p image?

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#2 Mitch Gross

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 11:54 AM

I think Cobalt Digital might have something. AJA doesn't (not for the field). The 4:4:4 output is available in 1080p, derived direct from the raw image, not uprezzed from 720p.
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#3 Mike Brennan

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 03:39 PM

Thanks Mitch, I wonder if the RED output will support SMPTE 372M standard...

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#4 Mitch Gross

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Posted 09 June 2008 - 08:30 PM

Perhaps. I'm guessing Rec 709 compliant. We'll all know in a few weeks.
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#5 Mike Brennan

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 03:25 AM

Perhaps. I'm guessing Rec 709 compliant. We'll all know in a few weeks.



To be clear, in theory Sony decks should take a P input from RED (thats what all the Sony cameras output)


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#6 Keith Walters

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 07:25 AM

To be clear, in theory Sony decks should take a P input from RED (thats what all the Sony cameras output)
Mike Brennan

I believe the segmentation is done in camera though.

Basically what they are doing is taking a single 1920 x 1080 frame and making it into 1920 x 540 fields. Each field is then compressed using DCT, so basically what is recorded is a series of JPEG-like digital stills, in place of the interlaced fields of analog video.

The problem is that when you compress and de-compress two 1920 x 540 half-images and then splice them back together, this does not produce exactly the same result as compressing and de-compressing a single 1920 x 1080 image.

However that was they best they could do with 1990s portable computer technology.

Unfortunately, there is still an awful lot of that technology around!

Ah well, what's new? The tail always insists on trying to wag the dog :P
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#7 Mitch Gross

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 11:00 AM

Sony decks will record psf, not p.
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#8 Mike Brennan

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 01:41 AM

Sony decks will record psf, not p.


Yes they will record psf to tape, I was hoping that the decks would recieve a P input and psf it in the deck.


Sony have replied to my question and they say that true P can be recorded at 1080 50p and 60p on SRW1 using dual link.

So if I understand this correctly true p needs dual link.


Jim?



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#9 Mitch Gross

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 11:50 PM

If this is true then there will be something possible although perhaps not with the initial release of Build 16. I understand that they are now promising dual-link 4:4:4 1080p on playback. Preview & record is still only 720p. Frankly I'm amazed they could repurpose their engine while in playback mode. Trying to imagine the hoops they jumped through to do it.
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#10 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 07:49 AM

First we have no idea what the internal layout of the thing is. Don't be too impressed. It's probably just a bunch of FPGA.

But the real question is, is it going to be any better than the existing SDI outputs, which are terrible and rancid and awful to the point of complete unusability for anything other than framing?

P
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#11 Mike Brennan

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 05:47 PM

First we have no idea what the internal layout of the thing is. Don't be too impressed. It's probably just a bunch of FPGA.

But the real question is, is it going to be any better than the existing SDI outputs, which are terrible and rancid and awful to the point of complete unusability for anything other than framing?

P


Im interested, from both business and camera science perspectives, that none of the RED upgrades since nov 2007 involve any additional hardware.
Some improvements are waking up hardware that has been dormant for a year, which is not unusual in electronic pro cameras, but the apparent reduction in noise with build 16 is usually achieved with hardware tweakes not software.

I hope someone directly compares build 15 to build 16 by shooting same test subject before and after the upgrade.


In respect to Phils apt description of rancid outputs, Sony misleadingly calls farty flickering noisy fizzy pictures a "monitoring output".
Having had finished today with another HD remote head aerial gimbal with yet another type of spaggetti/rain/corduory/hum bar noise signature I believe their is enough examples for a glossy illustrated book of electronic noise:)

If only we could figure a way of evaluating the background garbage on a Phil Rhodes rancid scale of one to ten:)

May I say that using RED in a wescam this week there was no gimbal or aircraft induced noise although the 720p monitoring image via slip rings was very organic :)



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