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front projection with red camera


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#1 Pedja Radenkovic

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 06:15 PM

Hello there

I decided to repost my topic and be more specific with question.

Has anybody out there done recently front projection effects either with red or any HD?

Is it possible to do FP with digital projectors and beam splitter mirror? I don't see why not, but...?

Is there any studio with set up for FP and crew who know this stuff?

I'm shooting feature film with car scenes (there is a lot of it and budget tight) and I need background plates, so besides green screen work I was looking into old methods like rear projection and front projection with HD technology? However rear projection always looked fake to me unless you going for that look and it has it's own disadvantages, where front projection is something that could look ok but it's complicated set up at least it was with 35mm and 35mm projector.
So, I was wondering if anybody has input about this matter besides green screen work?
Anybody that knows to make rare projection believable or anybody that knows the studio with front projection set up but for digital work flow. Thanks for your input.

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#2 Scott Fritzshall

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 07:36 PM

The answer to "how do I do _____ with RED" is, in most instances going to be, "the same as you do _____ with anything else." This topic would be a better fit for the Visual Effects subforum, because it doesn't really have anything to do with HD cameras.

I recall that there was an article in American Cinematographer somewhat recently about a DP using a projection technique with digital projectors, but I don't remember when that was or what he said about it. The essentials are pretty much the same as they were with film cameras and projectors though. It's very rare for anyone to use projection anymore aside from when they want a stylized look. Just about all of this is done with green screen nowadays. How come you want to use projection so much if not for a stylized look?
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#3 Pedja Radenkovic

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 12:23 AM

The answer to "how do I do _____ with RED" is, in most instances going to be, "the same as you do _____ with anything else." This topic would be a better fit for the Visual Effects subforum, because it doesn't really have anything to do with HD cameras.

I recall that there was an article in American Cinematographer somewhat recently about a DP using a projection technique with digital projectors, but I don't remember when that was or what he said about it. The essentials are pretty much the same as they were with film cameras and projectors though. It's very rare for anyone to use projection anymore aside from when they want a stylized look. Just about all of this is done with green screen nowadays. How come you want to use projection so much if not for a stylized look?


OK, I will post it on visual effects forum. Thanks

How come you want to use projection so much if not for a stylized look?

I want both stylized look and in camera effect rather then using green screen and going through post production, not seeing what I'm getting right away with green screen work, finding good post production house that would do good keys and overall I thought it would be cheaper for production doing projections. But it seems it will be green screen to some degree.
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#4 John Sprung

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 01:10 PM

Red's rolling shutter will be a major pain in trying to do front or rear projection. There's no pulldown or blanking time, some portion of the sensor is active at all times. So, with a film projector, you'd never get a complete frame on the screen. Maybe with a DLP, if you could guarantee not just sync, but phase lock.



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#5 Pedja Radenkovic

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 01:57 PM

Red's rolling shutter will be a major pain in trying to do front or rear projection. There's no pulldown or blanking time, some portion of the sensor is active at all times. So, with a film projector, you'd never get a complete frame on the screen. Maybe with a DLP, if you could guarantee not just sync, but phase lock.



-- J.S.


Thanks John. Yeah I meant to do it with DLP.
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#6 DJ Joofa

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 02:38 PM

Red's rolling shutter will be a major pain in trying to do front or rear projection. There's no pulldown or blanking time, some portion of the sensor is active at all times.


Don't know about Red's sensor. However, many sensors from some regular manufacturers do have blanking time embedded with active video in the signal out.

Edited by DJ Joofa, 18 June 2008 - 02:38 PM.

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#7 John Sprung

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 06:54 PM

I meant to do it with DLP.

You'd really need to get into the timing details on both the projector and camera. Single chip DLP's use sequential color with a spinning filter wheel, which looks like it might be impossible to handle. Even a three chip projector uses duty cycle modulation to get its gray scale, so you need to know all the potential timing issues with that. Look for the threads about strobes and Red to see what the rolling shutter does.

Even if the camera had something equivalent to traditional TV vertical blanking, that's a pretty small window to try to sneak thru.




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Aerial Filmworks