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Bates to 110 volt again


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#1 timHealy

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 12:31 PM

You guys locked that forum but you also locked how to do it the wrong way.

So what good is that? It seems it is just as bad or worse than as how to do it right. He clearly states he is trying to use a 240 volt 30 amp plug like a residential dryer outlet in a basement.

I can post how to do it with all the necessary warnings.

But somehow I feel that if you start limiting what we talk about here, who is to decide what to block out and what to put in. Are there guidelines that have been adopted that we don't know about? Etc etc.

Just my 2 cents.

Best

Tim
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#2 Walter Graff

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 01:24 PM

I'LL SAY THIS IN CAPITALS BECAUSE I CAN'T STRESS IF ENOUGH. ELECTRICITY IS DANGEROUS. IF SOMEONE ASKS A QUESTION AND FROM THE CONTEXT OF THE QUESTION IS IT OBVIOUS THAT THEY ARE NAIVE TO HOW TO WORK WITH ELECTRICITY, THEY SHOULD NOT BE DOING IT. TO MAKE IT WORSE, GETTING ADVICE FROM VARIOUS PEOPLE ABOUT VARIOUS WAYS TO DO IT IS WRONG. IT'S ONE THING THAT THIS FORUM IS FILLED LATELY WITH UP AND COMMERS WHO KNOW LITTLE ABOUT OVER EXPOSURE. OVER EXPOSURE CAN NOT KILL YOU. ELECTRICITY CAN. THE PERSON WHO ASKED THIS QUESTION SHOULD HIRE A PERSON WHO KNOWS HOW TO WORK WITH ELECTRICITY SO THAT HE DOESN'T DIE. AND TO GET ADVICE FROM A FORUM LIKE THIS ON SUCH A SUBJECT WITH LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS DANGEROUS.
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#3 Jamie Lewis

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 02:08 PM

I'LL SAY THIS IN CAPITALS BECAUSE I CAN'T STRESS IF ENOUGH. ELECTRICITY IS DANGEROUS. IF SOMEONE ASKS A QUESTION AND FROM THE CONTEXT OF THE QUESTION IS IT OBVIOUS THAT THEY ARE NAIVE TO HOW TO WORK WITH ELECTRICITY, THEY SHOULD NOT BE DOING IT.


And that's why I'm not building my dimmer, Walt!
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#4 timHealy

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 02:10 PM

No shite walter. calm down. you're preaching to the choir. you're assuming that anyone who asks these types of questions is a moron without the ability to learn. but I don't think the forum should be locked especially with some wrong info in it.

I have been an film electrician for 20 years and had to learn it once too.

I did the exact same thing the original poster is asking about to power some lights for my largest student film in college and I am still here alive and well. I didn't know a thing about electricity but knew enough to ask questions from the right people to be able to do it.

That is what the original poster is asking for. Since the column is locked you can even suggest that he talk with someone who knows more about it. in capitals or not.

best

Tim
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#5 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 03:47 PM

I agree that it's not a great idea to ask for such information online. It would be even dumber to try doing it based ONLY on what you read online. However, I also tend to agree that it is important to be able to ask those dumb questions and get a real answer, even if only to stress how incredibly dangerous it is.
Granted some people are idiots, but how can we divine those from the others who just want to have a general idea of what's going on around them, and the dangers of such things? Granted, in that post, there was an "i was planing on," which bodes badly for the individual, but would there be a qualitative difference if s/he said "this person was planning on. . . and I wanted to know how it's done?"


again, opinion only, and I suffer from the hubris of youth and all that, but the point remains, some people genuinely just want the information to be aware of what not do to, as opposed to how to do it themselves. Does any of that make sense?
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#6 Walter Graff

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 04:00 PM

"I have been an film electrician for 20 years and had to learn it once too."

and

"I did the exact same thing the original poster is asking about to power some lights for my largest student film in college..."


So which is it, you've been a working film electrician for 20 years, or you did your college project in the mid nineties when web sites like this started to appear and you and got info from the web? History writes you couldn't have used the web to get info 20 years ago so if you've been a working electrician for 20 years, I take it you must have gone to college prior to or around 1988. If so, it would have been tough to get info about how to do film-style wiring back then.

Okay, so the guy wants to make a 500 foot run. Please tell him what gauge cable he needs to use for such a run at 220/60, what connections he needs to make in the electrical box and with what connectors, and show a diagram as to how the wiring should be connected on both ends. Those three answers would be the only acceptable way to describe how to do it. No one in the other question did much to do so, and most of the answers where from people who themselves had never done anything like it. And if you do so and the guy kills himself, you can be held liable for contributing to his death.
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#7 Michael K Bergstrom

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 04:14 PM

I'm not uncomfortable working with electricity, I do wiring all the time, and have wired whole houses before for construction. Before taking apart the rental cables I just wanted to make sure that when I broke into the Bates, that what I was doing was even doable.
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#8 Walter Graff

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 04:41 PM

I'm not uncomfortable working with electricity, I do wiring all the time, and have wired whole houses before for construction. Before taking apart the rental cables I just wanted to make sure that when I broke into the Bates, that what I was doing was even doable.


It is doable but the cable run you mention is extreme so might require the use of a larger gauge cable to compensate for voltage drop. And if that is the case it might be better to use a 100amp union instead. The key would also to properly clean and to connect your ends to the connector with appropriate torque. If you know wiring, it should be easy to do.
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#9 Michael K Bergstrom

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 04:57 PM

Thanks. I'm now using for a backup, I convinced the powers that be that the generator would be a better and safer option...
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#10 Walter Graff

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 07:50 PM

Yes a genny would be a much easier and safer option for this.
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#11 timHealy

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 07:53 PM

"I have been an film electrician for 20 years and had to learn it once too."

and

"I did the exact same thing the original poster is asking about to power some lights for my largest student film in college..."


So which is it, you've been a working film electrician for 20 years, or you did your college project in the mid nineties when web sites like this started to appear and you and got info from the web? History writes you couldn't have used the web to get info 20 years ago so if you've been a working electrician for 20 years, I take it you must have gone to college prior to or around 1988. If so, it would have been tough to get info about how to do film-style wiring back then.

Okay, so the guy wants to make a 500 foot run. Please tell him what gauge cable he needs to use for such a run at 220/60, what connections he needs to make in the electrical box and with what connectors, and show a diagram as to how the wiring should be connected on both ends. Those three answers would be the only acceptable way to describe how to do it. No one in the other question did much to do so, and most of the answers where from people who themselves had never done anything like it. And if you do so and the guy kills himself, you can be held liable for contributing to his death.


enough with the drama and paranoia and spare me the history lessons.

What you misread was that I built the same device the poster wants to build in college and it is a smart idea to do so given that young filmmakers usually don't have access to tie ins and generators. It is actually very easy to do. we aren't talking about building a computer or a space ship.

high school students have done more complicated things in their science projects than what this guy wants to do.

And the voltage drop can be a issue but voltage drop is directly related to the load. So I can't tell anyone what type of cable to use until I know what lights they are using. Generally speaking, the heavier the better for a long cable run.
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#12 Walter Graff

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 07:58 PM

And the voltage drop can be a issue but voltage drop is directly related to the load. So I can't tell anyone what type of cable to use until I know what lights they are using. Generally speaking, the heavier the better for a long cable run.


So then in regards to the post you can't post in anymore, you can't give him the "what not to do's" because you couldn't tell him what to do right. That was the point. Glad it was shut down. End of topic for me.
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#13 timHealy

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 08:43 PM

So then in regards to the post you can't post in anymore, you can't give him the "what not to do's" because you couldn't tell him what to do right. That was the point. Glad it was shut down. End of topic for me.


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#14 timHealy

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 08:52 PM

quote name='WALTER GRAFF' post='237804' date='Jun 20 2008, 05:58 PM']So then in regards to the post you can't post in anymore, you can't give him the "what not to do's" because you couldn't tell him what to do right. That was the point. Glad it was shut down. End of topic for me.[/quote]

Are you kidding with this childish behavior? You're one hell of a professional. Are you always such a drama queen?

I can tell the guy exactly what to do. It just you I'm not really fond of replying to.
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#15 Michael K Bergstrom

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 10:58 PM

I've been working for several years gripping and gaffing, and despite not having a degree in electricity, I am still alive and shooting. I understand fully the dangers inherent in working with electricity, but there's a difference in understanding the danger and doing stupid things, and understanding the danger, and working to fill the needs of the production to the highest degree of competence. I was not asking for a complete wiring diagram, I was just making sure that what I was doing was feasible with a 60amp bates before I started rewiring a rental unit. Tim, thank you for your defense in this, if I have further questions about power and distro, I will PM you if that is ok with you. My question as to why there isn't a gaffing forum is probably best summed up with some of the responses to this thread ;)
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#16 Michael K Bergstrom

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 11:06 PM

TO MAKE IT WORSE, GETTING ADVICE FROM VARIOUS PEOPLE ABOUT VARIOUS WAYS TO DO IT IS WRONG.


There's always more than one way to skin a cat. I like having various ways to do a task.

IT'S ONE THING THAT THIS FORUM IS FILLED LATELY WITH UP AND COMMERS WHO KNOW LITTLE ABOUT OVER EXPOSURE. OVER EXPOSURE CAN NOT KILL YOU.


You don't know some of the DP's I know... :P

THE PERSON WHO ASKED THIS QUESTION SHOULD HIRE A PERSON WHO KNOWS HOW TO WORK WITH ELECTRICITY SO THAT HE DOESN'T DIE.


Thanks, I feel loved. :rolleyes:
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#17 Rich Hibner

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 01:28 AM

I remember one time I wired a china ball fixture myself. From complete scratch. The switch, the porcelain base...all of it. I plugged it and made a huge spark and flipped a breaker. So, after that, I found a different way to do it. I've never wired anything before other than batteries to a motor. I eventually made it and lived to to tell my tale. Electricity is scary. But be smart.
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#18 timHealy

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 01:22 PM

Tim, thank you for your defense in this, if I have further questions about power and distro, I will PM you if that is ok with you.


Hey Michael,

If you or anyone else has any questions about power or distro I will be more than happy to answer any questions I can. And if I don't know or am unsure of something I could easily talk with my peers to try and find something out.

All of my experience is based on U.S. productions in NYC and some in LA so I can try and answer based on that work.

Best

Tim
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#19 timHealy

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 01:48 PM

Electricity is scary. But be smart.


I would say electricity needs to be respected and it is probably good to have a healthy amount of fear especially as a beginner, but with the right knowledge and prep it can be worked with perfectly safe.

After all how many film and TV productions happen every year without incident. I have heard of a few stories over the years about people being shocked, but I have never heard of anyone being killed. "Knock on wood". I myself have only been shocked once with a freaking neon sign. That was a good bite. For what it is worth never touch any neon light or ballast with it on. Did I say never?

But if can wire up DC motors you can easily learn what you need to know to use AC safely.

Best

Tim
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#20 JD Hartman

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 07:20 PM

As has been noted, there aren't enough details about the cable run to give an accurate answer. In any case more than a 3% voltage drop at the end of a cable run is un-acceptable. Here is a stab at an answer, given the following: load can not exceed the branch circuit size, 30A; single phase; single leg 450 feet; #6 EISC wire. Voltage drop = 11.11v or 10%
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