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High contrast film (sound vs. print stock)


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#1 Richardson Leao

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Posted 27 June 2008 - 07:47 AM

Dear all,

I know some people here have used sound recording film to get some high cons effect. So, could I also achieve the high contrast of a sound rec film with BW print film?

Like here with kodak sound film:


many thanks!
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#2 David Venhaus

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 12:37 AM

From my experience, 7302/5302 b+w print film isn't nearly as high in contrast as any of the sound rec films, even with developing it in high contrast developers. As for intermediate films that I've tried, 5363/7363 also doesn't seem to be as high in contrast as the sound rec films, imho.
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#3 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 02:24 PM

From my experience, 7302/5302 b+w print film isn't nearly as high in contrast as any of the sound rec films, even with developing it in high contrast developers.


If you develop it reversal, you'll get a very high density range.
Viewing the original, the image won't appear contrasty, but most of that picture is outside the range of the print stocks & I would guess telecine, so it will print contrasty.

Because of the clear base there is no anti halation property, so bright highlights will have a glow arond them.
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#4 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 03:28 PM

Another problem you may expect: if the camera has shiny chrome pressure plate, it will reflect light back into the emulsion. This will be visible as a lighter pattern on the final image. Very disturbing once you notice it.
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#5 K Borowski

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 11:17 PM

Another problem you may expect: if the camera has shiny chrome pressure plate, it will reflect light back into the emulsion. This will be visible as a lighter pattern on the final image. Very disturbing once you notice it.


Dirk, the post before yours, refers to "halation", which is the same phenomenon you are referring to. English is a difficult language to get the gist of. I'm sure there is another, more descriptive term for it in your mother tongue.
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#6 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 01:29 AM

Karl,

I know what halation is, it shows up as a lighter circle around the headlamps of a car for example. This is caused by light reflecting inside the emulsion. Typical on B&W stocks but not at all on color stocks. Doing direct blow-ups to older 5302, halation showed up as darker areas around dark objects. At my request Kodak added an anti-halation layer in the newer 5302 to reduce this effect (mid 1990ies). The yellow layer you see in 5366 is doing the same job since the emulsion is sensitive to blue only.

On most modern cameras you have a black film pressure plate with chrome stripes in the middle. Light falling on a B&W stock will penetrate the emulsion and reflect back off the chrome stripes and expose the emulsion coming from the back showing lighter areas matching exactly the pattern of the film pressure plate. If you hold an unprocessed piece of B&W and color stock against the light you will see the difference in light transmission.

The effect called halation will always be visible on a particular stock, the reflection I described is hardware dependent. First time a customer saw this, he accused me of bad processing, after some investigation, I suggested him to take the film pressure plate out of the camera and shoot the scene again, the stripes were gone.
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#7 K Borowski

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 09:44 AM

Karl,

I know what halation is, it shows up as a lighter circle around the headlamps of a car for example. This is caused by light reflecting inside the emulsion. Typical on B&W stocks but not at all on color stocks. Doing direct blow-ups to older 5302, halation showed up as darker areas around dark objects. At my request Kodak added an anti-halation layer in the newer 5302 to reduce this effect (mid 1990ies). The yellow layer you see in 5366 is doing the same job since the emulsion is sensitive to blue only.

[. . .]

The effect called halation will always be visible on a particular stock, the reflection I described is hardware dependent. First time a customer saw this, he accused me of bad processing, after some investigation, I suggested him to take the film pressure plate out of the camera and shoot the scene again, the stripes were gone.


Wow, you not only got Kodak to *admit the existence* of the problem, you got them to fix it? That's pretty impressive ;)

While the phenomenon you're describing is hardware dependent, it's still halation, it's just worsened when there's something shiny that'll bounce more of the light back. I'm not arguing with your assertions in any way.
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#8 Glen Alexander

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 02:52 PM

Wow, you not only got Kodak to *admit the existence* of the problem, you got them to fix it? That's pretty impressive ;)

While the phenomenon you're describing is hardware dependent, it's still halation, it's just worsened when there's something shiny that'll bounce more of the light back. I'm not arguing with your assertions in any way.


Karl,

If you didn't know, this is one of the people from, www.color-by-dejonghe.be, probably one of the best labs in EU.

This issue is also why I'm requesting a modified BL4 with a black gate from Clairmont.

Edited by Glen Alexander, 29 June 2008 - 02:54 PM.

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