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7218 for short movie S16 In Israel ?


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#1 Damien Dufresne

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 04:49 PM

hi !

it's my first topic but Ii'm a accuracy reader !

I am french student and i will go to Israel to shoot a short movie in S16. with a lot ext/int day ant few int/ext night. we have not a lot of lighting material for int day and night. so maybe i will take one stock : 7218 for all. I'd rather three stocks ( 7201 for extreme ext day, 7205 for int day and 7218 for night )than one stock but we have not scripte and we are afraid to not look at carefully the metrage for each sequence and it's a cheap movie!

So I would take 7218 for all .
I'm afraid about ext day with this stock but I want to overexpose one stop for all shoot. With 85 and a shutter at 90 normally i rate it at 80 ASA. I can use 85 DN, but I'm afraid of seeing nothing trought the viewfinder.

It is a big mistake ? :blink:

thank you for your answer and very sorry for catastrophic english !
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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:29 PM

Sure, you can expose '18 for daylight. I might recommend, though the new 7219 stock as it "sees" more into shadow and highlight than the '18 does. You'll be at a 320 asa from the 85 filter, and then loose another stop from the 90 degree shutter giving you about a 160asa negative. So for over-exposure, you might benefit from rating it at 100 as opposed to 80 asa as I'd not want to put her 1 stop over. 2/3rd over is my preferred sweet spot for the '18 and will have the same grain tightening effect on the '19. As with everything relating to film, this comes with the disclaimer to test for yourself to ensure you're happy (and the director is happy) with the results.

Best of luck!
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#3 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:36 PM

Missed the chance to go back and edit my original; thought it would be prudent to add that if possible you really should try bringing some 7201 or 7205 for your daylight stuff when you need it. Of course I know this isn't always possible.
I personally often use 7217 outside with an 85 when I'm running with limited/non-ideal stock (then I can also use her for tungsten @200asa if need be)
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#4 Serge Teulon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 08:10 PM

As with everything relating to film, this comes with the disclaimer to test for yourself to ensure you're happy (and the director is happy) with the results.



:)
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#5 Damien Dufresne

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 02:45 AM

Sure, you can expose '18 for daylight. I might recommend, though the new 7219 stock as it "sees" more into shadow and highlight than the '18 does. You'll be at a 320 asa from the 85 filter, and then loose another stop from the 90 degree shutter giving you about a 160asa negative. So for over-exposure, you might benefit from rating it at 100 as opposed to 80 asa as I'd not want to put her 1 stop over. 2/3rd over is my preferred sweet spot for the '18 and will have the same grain tightening effect on the '19. As with everything relating to film, this comes with the disclaimer to test for yourself to ensure you're happy (and the director is happy) with the results.

Best of luck!


thank you !

I would take 7219 but it's too expensive... I'll make test for overexpose 7218 with 2/3 and 1 stop
the director want contrast and saturated color. maybe with 1 stop it's OK. for few short I want overexpose with 2 stop to have a special picture. Do you try 18 with hardoverxeposure ?
I'm afraid about the shutter angle 90, it's possible to have strobe in this way no? but it's good for the blown up, frame is more sharpen.
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#6 Damien Dufresne

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 02:55 AM

Missed the chance to go back and edit my original; thought it would be prudent to add that if possible you really should try bringing some 7201 or 7205 for your daylight stuff when you need it. Of course I know this isn't always possible.
I personally often use 7217 outside with an 85 when I'm running with limited/non-ideal stock (then I can also use her for tungsten @200asa if need be)




you are right, it's maybe possible and it's also good for my health !! I can take 7212 but for my test it's only 60 meters for one stock but I need to test the other stock if I take it. Can you tell me about the 7217 with overexposure and lattitude. and the 7212 ? In this country, Israel, Sure contrast between shadows and hightlight must be very hard !!
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#7 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 07:36 AM

I personally havn't shot the 7212 myself, but for the '17 I find she has a good latitude comperable to that of the '18 stock. However, i always rate her true as I don't see the benefit of over-exposure when the stock is already fine grained enough for me (though over exposing 2/3rd or so will again tighten grain and saturate colors).
I find she holds detail very well across the brightness range of a scene and am happy with her, on the whole.

For the '12, for what it's worth, i do think it is the "sharpest," of the film stocks that Kodak offers.

The contrast of some scenes may well exceed the range of any emulsion; In such situations I would recommend carrying around some ND Grads, .6, .9 and the like, in order to help deal with very hot skies v/s deep shadow.


The old Campy film "Jesus Christ Super Star," was shot on 16mm over in Isreal in the '70s and comes out very nice looking (for the exts). So the countryside can render nicely on even outdated stocks; Just be sure to place your exposure where you want it and trust in the negative to get you the information on it you need.

Edited by Adrian Sierkowski, 02 July 2008 - 07:37 AM.

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#8 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 02:31 PM

The old Campy film "Jesus Christ Super Star," was shot on 16mm over in Isreal in the '70s and comes out very nice looking (for the exts). So the countryside can render nicely on even outdated stocks;


Uh...actually it was 35mm anamorphic, Todd-AO 35, with 70mm prints.

Sorry about tossing sand in your gears.
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#9 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 02:34 PM

Was it really 70mm? Wow, I'd've never though! I watched it off a 16mm print. . so I suppose that's where my confusion arose.
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#10 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 03:57 PM

Was it really 70mm? Wow, I'd've never though! I watched it off a 16mm print. . so I suppose that's where my confusion arose.


Well, the 70mm prints were only for a few 1st run theatres. I can't recall if the 1st run was a road show release or not. So most prints were 35mm scope.
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#11 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 03:59 PM

Yeah, we had had a 16mm print of it I had to watch in a film-history class. It was nice to see something as a print, and I suppose I just assumed the rest of the way.
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#12 Damien Dufresne

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 06:19 PM

jesus super star is a special movie I like it !

I take your advice in consideration and I agree with you : just trust in the negative with a good exposition !

Thank You
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#13 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 10:28 PM

I can never get over the King Herod musical number.
Do keep up all updated on here as your shoot progresses. I'm sure we'd love to hear it.
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#14 Vincenzo Condorelli AIC

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 05:35 AM

hey, im in the same situation, shooting a grad film in israel on s16mm, maybe you wanna send me a msg and we could meet and discuss our tests.

in my shoot i'll have most day ext therefore i'll definitely go for the 50D, trying to get some 7218 for the night int/ext...since i-ve never shot 50D before i was wondering how the two stocks would cut together. any contribution from cameramen who have experience in cutting these two stocks together would be greatly appreciated.

ps damien i fear that shooting 500t outside is gonna give you some headache given the brightness of the israeli daylight...
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#15 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 04:04 PM

50D to 500T in terms of film/grain is differant. But that's ok so long as you're cutting from say an ext to an int. It's "acceptable," theoretically, because you've changed locations. Now, shooting a 2 people talking with 1 person on 50D and i on 500t would probably not work. .
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#16 Vincenzo Condorelli AIC

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 04:48 PM

of course i'd never shoot the same scene with two different stocks...my idea is to go 50Dfor the day and dusk exteriors and 500t for the night interiors...my concern regards a possible blow up to 35mm...the fine grain of the 50D should be ideal in this case, but i wonder what would happen with the 500t (7218)...the guy at the local lab was suggesting to rate the 500t to 250 or even more...
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#17 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 04:58 PM

The lab is right to caution about the grain of a 500T, but rating it @ 250 would be a stop over, which I'd not normally recommend. I find 320 to be to my liking. Look into the '19 though if you might output to 35, as it as tighter grain and the like (also over-expose slightly, maybe 2/3rd of a stop).
Maybe look into 200T which is a generally very fine grained film which I quite adore, and should be robust enough to garner an exposure on night INTs.. . an ext would be more of a problem; but if you have the lighting you have the lighting (for the int you'll need more lighting too to compensate for the speed change). Some people rate the 200T about 125, but personally I like it at it's natural 200.
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#18 Vincenzo Condorelli AIC

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 05:56 PM

i definitely agree with you on rating the 7218 at 320, i've had good results by doing that and that's why i was a bit puzzled by what the guy of the local lab suggested (rating it at 250 or even at 200).

here the 7219 is more expensive than the vision 2 and that's odd cause in my country (italy) is not like that, so i'll have to convince the production to go for an extra cost. must say that also the lab here is very expensive, and they do not print (just develop to tk) so for my final print (and eventually the blow up) i'll go to london or rome. still i'd like to get a nice, thick neg both for the day ext and the night int/ext.

i have experience with the 7205 (i usually love to add an 81EF to it) but, as i said before, i've never shot the 01. i was thinking to rate it at 32. today i did some short testing, so tomorrow i'll see the results at the lab. the trickiest part of the shoot will be the transition from late afternoon to dusk in exteriors. here the day (from 10 am till 6 pm) is very, very bright: incident readings at around f16 (50 asa) with a three to four stops range (key/fill side). i guess i'll have to diffuse a lot from above and from the side...which material would you suggest for that? silk?
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#19 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 06:04 PM

Well, I don't really see the point of rating 50 @ anything but 50, but that's just me. This being the case I can't advise you on the benefits of rating it @32. The grain is very tight on the 50D already and if you're going a DI route for a film-out, you can control mostly everything else in terms of it's color renditions/saturation then/there.
For the contrast range; silk or muslin or the like will work, or you can just bounce light into the shadows to bring them up a bit, whichever is your preference, look, and ease.
Myself, I don't really like the '05, but that's just me. I always preffer to go for the '17 @125 w an 85 for "high speed" during the day. Again that's just me.
I wish I could shoot in isreal! wanna fly me out to do b/s work?
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#20 Vincenzo Condorelli AIC

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 06:12 PM

well at the moment my first concern is not to have them regret that they flew me in lol...i'll keep you posted on the developments though, i guess i'll know more after i see tomorrow's tests...thanks for all the advices...
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