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over saturated look- Velvia 50D?


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#1 jason duncan

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 03:41 PM

Hello all,

Hope this isn't too naive of a question. I'm looking for that; almost over saturated look, and was wondering if Velvia 50D is the way to go. I've used 64T but it's not enough colour for me. I do like 200T. Especially Steve Hyde's work with negative. But I would like to stick with reversal and I'm not totally happy with 64T.

Thanks for any help you guys.
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#2 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 04:10 PM

Hope this isn't too naive of a question. I'm looking for that; almost over saturated look, and was wondering if Velvia 50D is the way to go. I've used 64T but it's not enough colour for me. I do like 200T. Especially Steve Hyde's work with negative. But I would like to stick with reversal and I'm not totally happy with 64T.


I would say you would like Velvia 50D. I do disagree with you that 64t doesn't have enough color though. I love the color rendition of 64t if you get enough light. That seems to be the challenge of 64t...getting enough light to not have to shoot wide open. Anyhow, i think 50D is going to be your best bet if your trying to getting more color than 64t.
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#3 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 04:12 PM

If you want to shoot on reversal and require an very saturated and dense aesthetic from your film stock in-camera (and not through post), then V-50 is indeed the film stock to go for!

You will find that it is much more intense than K-40 was, and by far more than Ektachrome film stocks are today. Local love-hate ciny.com member Santo once gloriously described V-50 as "Circuschrome", and that pretty much sums it up.

Grain-wise, V-50 has coarser granularity than K-40 had, but is finer than E-64 and E-100, or indeed E-125 or E-160 were. But it's no match for Vision2 or 3 negative films, however.

Both Super 8 Today and Smallformat/Schmalfilm magazines had screen caps printed in articles showing the various film stocks. You might also find online pics if you google well.

BTW, by shooting V-50, you should theoretically avoid issues witht he SMPTE-166 cartridge notch code struggles that some cameras have, as V-50 sold by Spectra (US) and Wittner (DE) are supposed to be compliant - but I am not sure about that 100% as Wittner had different batches that had different notch codes. Someone who shot V-50 right now (I havn't for a while - not the aesthetics I currently need) will certainly chime in.

Finally, do not wait for Cinevia, the third supplier, to start selling V-50 anytime soon in their specially designed cartridge. Won't happen.

Hope that helped to familiarise yourself with V-50.
Cheers,
-Michael
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#4 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 04:19 PM

But it's no match for Vision2 or 3 negative films, however.


Michael, any word on when or if Kodak is going to update the Vision2 Super 8 stock to Vision 3? I'm not talking about Pro8mm recans, I'm talking factory fresh.
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#5 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 04:55 PM

Michael, any word on when or if Kodak is going to update the Vision2 Super 8 stock to Vision 3? I'm not talking about Pro8mm recans, I'm talking factory fresh.


Funny that you ask this right now as I have a sample Vision3 DVD (a.k.a. pointless sample for exact evaluation ;) ) in front of me and thought that as I heard "July 08 on S8" from Kodak shortly after 7219 was launched, it should happen every day now... in theory...

As I havn't received any launch info or whispers from Wittner or Widescreen Centre (and Todd-AO isn't in a good S8 mood at all right now :( ), I cannot give you a date or even hint when it'll happen. It will, but maybe not as originally stated, namely "july 08", after all.

We'll have to wait and see. Sorry for not being able to give you exact info here.
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#6 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 07:27 PM

Hello all,

Hope this isn't too naive of a question. I'm looking for that; almost over saturated look, and was wondering if Velvia 50D is the way to go. I've used 64T but it's not enough colour for me. I do like 200T. Especially Steve Hyde's work with negative. But I would like to stick with reversal and I'm not totally happy with 64T.

Thanks for any help you guys.


G'day,
it has to be remembered that colour saturation with reversal film is exposure related. the greater the exposure the less the saturation. If you want to increase colour saturation, then decrease exposure. with reversal film, the rule of thumb is:
over exposure = less colour, less contrast, less grain
under exposure = more colour saturation, more contrast, more grain
I see results for 64t every day varying from highly saturated to under saturated. Its all possible. Certainly 'correctly' exposed 64t has higher colour saturation than kodachrome in my opinion (of course some people will disagree with that based on their experience). but any one particular super 8 camera may well over or under rate either of these stocks, giving different results for these stocks ... if you understand what I mean.
cheers,
Richard
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#7 Ric Kemp

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Posted 27 August 2008 - 01:49 PM

Hi,

i understand Fuji Velvia 50D is an E6 process? does this mean you can develop it like 64T, without having to scape of the anti-halation layer, which would be the case with the old Fuji R25N for example?

thanks

Ric
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#8 andy oliver

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Posted 28 August 2008 - 05:40 PM

unless you require ther aditional sharpness of circuschrome, opps, 50d, then i would opt for wittner 100d, why?, its a film that is designed for MP, and kodak cut the perfs. Its not a reperfed slide film that gives one erratic image stability...
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#9 Ryan Ball

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 01:58 AM

Hello all,

Hope this isn't too naive of a question. I'm looking for that; almost over saturated look, and was wondering if Velvia 50D is the way to go. I've used 64T but it's not enough colour for me. I do like 200T. Especially Steve Hyde's work with negative. But I would like to stick with reversal and I'm not totally happy with 64T.

Thanks for any help you guys.


I recently shot some Velvia 50 and loved how the color popped, but the registration seemed bad compared to the Plus-X, Tri-X, 200T and 500T I shot with the same camera on the same day. Anybody else have trouble with the registration using V50D?
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#10 Ric Kemp

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 02:56 PM

unless you require ther aditional sharpness of circuschrome, opps, 50d, then i would opt for wittner 100d, why?, its a film that is designed for MP, and kodak cut the perfs. Its not a reperfed slide film that gives one erratic image stability...


Hi Andy

circuschrome?

wittner 100D - are not all the new Single 8 stocks ultimately Retro8/Cineva ~ i thought Wittner just repackaged them, under their white label, whereas the Cineva label is green; but film and film cassettes identical?

thanks

R
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#11 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 09:03 AM

"Circuschrome" is the informal name given to Fuji Velvia 50 D by users on this and "the other" forum when originally introduced in 2006: I believe the term was coined by Santo.

It refers to the (some said: grotesquely) oversaturated and intense colours V-50 delivers in comparison to other motion picture film technology, making it in some exposure conditions look like Technicolor on steroids. This wanted to indicate then that unlike with other film stocks, cinematographers should be first seriously testing V-50 for themselves to assess whether it can be used aesthetically in their respective film projects due to the potential visual overtaking of the entire film's cinematic impression by the strong (some said overburdening) colour palette of V-50. Hence the term "circus" for its grand over-the-top appearing and style and potential application... think in terms of the many "Circus of Vampires" Hammer horror shockers from the 1970s, starring Peter Cushing and other screen legends.

It also refers in another take to the "circus-like" euphoria created particularly in Germany around its original market introduction by Gottfried Klose with media assistance by Jürgen Lossau and technical input by Tak Koyama (not Wittner or Spectra, they came in much later, doing independent productions and being in some ways earlier to market with a finished product) as the "saviour of Super 8" and of amateur filmmaking alike (regarded synonymously there). There was also the undercurrent notion of V-50 symbolising Fuji's indirect (Single 8) revenge on Kodak's claimed "abandonment of Super 8", a view put forward by Single 8 aficionados at that time - all this brouhaha due to the cancellation of the obsolete Kodachrome technology in 2005. This was particularly spearheaded then by "Schmalfilm" magazine whose current German issue is again filled with all sorts of odd throwbacks à la "Take this, Kodak"-propaganda while eshewing a balanced reporting on the manufacturing, production and marketing state of the format by that company, now richer and more committed to the format than at any time during the last 3 decades.

If you want to re-read the past battlefront threads, then readers can go back a few dozen pages here in this sub-forum to read the exchanges between David Mullen ASC and Jürgen "Filmfreund" Lossau about the K-40 death/V-50 rebirth; the first tests of V-50; the Fuji-v-Kodak antagonism and so on and so forth.
The thread titles are in the Super 8 FAQ here in this forum.

BTW, the future of V-50 via Cinevia is still unclear, as orders are not taken and the online store re-openings cancelled indefinitely, let alone to think of the eventual (?) introduction of the new GK-Film precision cartridge for V-50, a project looking very much abandoned right now.
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#12 Ric Kemp

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 04:27 PM


"Circuschrome" is the informal name given to Fuji Velvia 50 D by users on this and "the other" forum ... the future of V-50 via Cinevia is still unclear, as orders are not taken and the online store re-openings cancelled indefinitely, let alone to think of the eventual (?) introduction of the new GK-Film precision cartridge for V-50, a project looking very much abandoned right now.


thanks. this obviously concerns me. K40 colour was preferable to me over Fujica's blue-tonality, but i still liked Fuji film a lot. what really appealed to me about Single 8 was that you had complete control over back-wind / manual lap dissolve, whereas Super 8 cartridges are hermetically sealed, and the lap-dissolve function on my 2 Nizo's is (now) unreliable

yelps of ecstacy, therefore, when i read of the revolution in Single 8 cassette manufacture which was replacing Fujichrome with similar emulsions and (gasp) Super 8 type emulsions. however, i have scarcely had time to evaluate the tonality of the new filmstocks because the new cassettes give me problems, whenever i try to backwind - a basic engineering design question - quite apart from the chemistry, it seems?

suggestions welcome

Ric
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#13 Jim Carlile

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 12:25 AM

Michael, there are no links on the battlefront threads at the beginning. The search engine didn't pull anything up, either.
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#14 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:13 AM

Hi Jim,

sorry, I just got back from 4 weeks LA and hence feel a bit numb back in rainy London (totally forgot what is meant with "summer" here - I guess Santa Monica has different "summers" :D B) )

Jim, I can see your problem: here's my "online help suggestion":

Go to this post in the Super 8 FAQ (aka Reader's Digest): CLICK ME

This is the "most read" overview (still valid, BTW) of the Super 8 forum. It includes most of the 2005-7 battlefront threads between Santo, Alex and the rest of the world (ahh, good old times) I refered to above.

I was specifically talking about the following threads above (as you might have deducted from their topic names):
  • The Super 8 Direct To Hard Drive Revolution. Who, Where, and How
  • How To Shoot Razor Sharp Super 8: Use Deductive Reasoning Rather Than Nostalgia
  • Petition against Production Stop of Kodachrome 40
  • Why Does Kodak Hate super8?
  • Fuji Single 8 Bites The Big One -- Kodak Karries On!
  • Pro-8mm WINS, EVERYONE ELSE LOSES...

These are not hyperlinked, which is entirely my mistake as I didn't know how to do hyperlinks in this forum when I started out here, and never imagined that I would make a Super 8 FAQ out of this thread once the feedback and PMs with forum seniors started coming in.

SO what you will have to do is the following: Login to here with your username, go to Search, and immediately go to More Search Options in the drop-down menu (the basic search function is utterly useless, you have to use the advanced one to find anything at all here.
Once you have reached the advanced search page (here for a shortcut), you copy the to-be-searched-for thread title like "Fuji Single 8 Bites The Big One -- Kodak Karries On!" in its entirely but without the inverted commas and paste them into the Search by Keywords field. Below, you go to Search Where and scoll down the list to Super 8, which you highlight by clicking on it. Now, only exact search path feedbacks from the Super 8 forum should show up. Click on the Perform the Search button.

I am pretty certain that the resulting search results should only bring up this specific thread, plus the topic title as quoted by me in the FAQ. Click on the search result, and enjoy reading the past, when controversy ruled the Super 8 world, people could get banned, poisonous words were exchanged and everyone was generally more happy and flush with dot.com, Kodak and Polaroid stocks... or so... :wacko:

Hope that helped, Jim. :)

-Michael
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#15 Ric Kemp

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:19 AM

Update

... i have scarcely had time to evaluate the tonality of the new filmstocks because the new cassettes give me problems, whenever i try to backwind - a basic engineering design question - quite apart from the chemistry, it seems?


ran a whole cassette of R25N through the ZC-1000 yesterday, went through without so much as a hiccup (camera test) - and bought two new R25's from Single8.com, there must be a source somewhere - has Fuji started making ciné film again?

also heard that the problem with the new filmstock running, is not in the cassettes themselves, but the fact that the new film types are 1] thicker(?) and 2] do not have the slippery-smoothness (anti-halation?) property as the old Fuji film, and hence the less than smooth running sometimes encountered

but all in all, i can only applaud this bold attempt to breathe new life into Single 8, these are great cameras and deserve filmstock to run through them: i will continue to use both Super and Single 8, so long as 8mm film remains to be filmed with ;)

R
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#16 Michael Lehnert

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:33 AM

thanks. this obviously concerns me. K40 colour was preferable to me over Fujica's blue-tonality, but i still liked Fuji film a lot. what really appealed to me about Single 8 was that you had complete control over back-wind / manual lap dissolve, whereas Super 8 cartridges are hermetically sealed, and the lap-dissolve function on my 2 Nizo's is (now) unreliable

yelps of ecstacy, therefore, when i read of the revolution in Single 8 cassette manufacture which was replacing Fujichrome with similar emulsions and (gasp) Super 8 type emulsions. however, i have scarcely had time to evaluate the tonality of the new filmstocks because the new cassettes give me problems, whenever i try to backwind - a basic engineering design question - quite apart from the chemistry, it seems?

suggestions welcome

Ric


I agree with John Holland here that Fuji material is grossly undervalued (am talking negative stock here) and is now more filmic than Kodak's. However, I do dislike Single 8 polyester base material for exactly this - the polyester base which sucked for editing when viewers and editing tables ruled the world (roughly 60 million years ago - i.e. my birthday).

What Retro8 is doing in Japan is outstanding, and Fuji's indirect assistance with it should be congratulated. Likewise, Kodak's stance towards Super 8 is much more committed than anything Fuji has shown in the past, and reading Jürgen's biased editorial (which is his right to write, but I find it biased and the choosing of words does not reflect the responsibility Schmalfilm holds towards the German S8 market which is HUUUUGGE - I have seen more German filmmakers quit S8 based on ill-formulated articles there than I have seen new one's join thanks to the great Schmalfilm initiatives with Nomos & co.) in Schmalfilm really drove me nuts and made me book a flight out of Germany back to LA (no joke... really...)

Note that the Cinevia issue is only concerning folks who thought they could buy from GK. Wittner is afaik still selling, and Spectra has become the most committed and reliable seller of S8 film stock on this planet, with Pro8mm being committed but not necessarily reliable.

The running issues in both Single 8 and Super 8 cartridges is due to thicker film stock not originally foreseen to be packed into the design: that affects all cartridge formats right now, but Spectra/Wittner advances with preping film stock pre-loading helped Super 8 alot here, so I think Single 8 packagers will or have already adopted this, too. Then there is the issue of perforation precision and slicing the film reels, which gets better and better, too; even at Kodak's own new plant (believe it or not :) ). Not sure how Tak faires here now, but when I meet him originally many years ago in a German city hall, he was already well aware of all these issues we then discussed purely hypothetically.

Keep us posted about how your Single 8 experience goes. I think this forum could need some infos on Single 8 developments!

Back to bed,

-Michael
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#17 Ric Kemp

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 04:59 PM

Keep us posted about how your Single 8 experience goes. I think this forum could need some infos on Single 8 developments!
-Michael


am not quitting on new ZC-1000. Cinevia are so close to producing a relaible Single 8 format they just have to get it right ;)

Ric
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#18 Ric Kemp

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Posted 02 September 2008 - 09:26 PM

am not quitting on new ZC-1000. Cinevia are so close to producing a reliable Single 8 format they just have to get it right ;)

Ric


Cinevia Velvia asa 50 test 13/Aug/08 - processed by Andec - filmed with Fujica ZC-1000. Summary:

trees filmed through window + object on window sill, sunny day

two lenses - Fuji 7.5-75mm zoom + Canon 75-200mm zoom via 'C' mount adapter; the former being initially modified with a Kood close-up filter as an experiment

this time, the Cinevia cassette allowed me to backwind / lap dissolve, without any problem at all - were this always the case i would be in 7th heaven

the colours looked 'true' on the ciné editor, and not saturated in any sense - although mostly green foliage filmed, a coffee mug with a red design on it was also filmed; the film finished as i began experimenting with the 36 - 72fps settings

i tried a lap dissolve in the field about a week after this test and ended up with a jammed cassette - i have no real idea why one film will run smoothly and another not; Retro-X also behaves like this: i think the emulsion must be causing some sort of friction in the cassette - this might cause the film to expand and jam? or maybe the action of forwarding and reversing the film is just tightening the whole cassette up?

remember the old C60 audio cassettes - when they at length siezed up, whacking them on a table top, in the palm of the hand, jolted the coils loose again ~ i just wonder if a similar piece of unsophisticated tech-bodge might come out on top here?

this is good film; these are good cameras

imho

R
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#19 Ric Kemp

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 03:53 PM

this evening i took the Velvia cassette which jammed on me during a lap dissolve [28 August]. i took it in the palm of my hand so that the cassette was parallel with the floor, on which i placed a broad hardback book. i then moderately slammed the cassette down, rotating spindle surfaces as i did so - flat side to flat side - about a dozen times: hard enough to jolt the cassette, but not hard enough to damage it. i then placed it in my Z2 ~ the spindle turned as normal; after a while i removed the cassette and placed it in the ZC-1000: the spindle turned as normal; i continued filming until the spindle stopped rotating. i removed the cassette and noted that the film had ended as per normal, showing the 'end indentation' at the end of the footage

when i say the cassette had jammed i mean it had jammed solid - to the point where the Z2 manual rewind wouldn't turn any more; jolting the cassette has undone all the tightening tension, resulting from back-winding the film

in future i will take a film changing bag with me, and if the film jams again, unload the cassette in total darkness and repeat the above procedure

i saw this done over 20 years ago to an audio cassette which had stopped rotating - the guy in the shop just banged it on the counter a few times, and it started turning again :-o

R
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#20 Art Leal

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 11:20 PM

I recently shot some Velvia 50 and loved how the color popped, but the registration seemed bad compared to the Plus-X, Tri-X, 200T and 500T I shot with the same camera on the same day. Anybody else have trouble with the registration using V50D?



I had substantial registration problems with this recent roll I shot. It was very jittery, and using Deshaker and SteadyMovePro with a number of different settings kept the jitter low, but the image suffered. I believe I shot a roll about three years ago and don't remember having this issue, so am wondering if using that camera would help. I liked the look and grain. I agree its not as fine as K-40 but it appears finer than 64T.

I wouldn't use Velvia as an all around stock, but it would be nice to keep it in the arsenal for when the need arises.

Anyone have any success stories? Would love to give them a try.

Thanks


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