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B&W with the RED


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#1 Joe Taylor

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 04:01 PM

Has anybody had any experience or seen any footage converted to B&W that was shot with the RED ONE? IF I get my camera before mid August I might have a project that will be shot 2.35 B&W.

I've set up a Canon 20D and 5D to shoot B&W and it looks pretty good-- but have heard nothing about how the RED handles B&W.

Thanks
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#2 Scott Fritzshall

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 04:21 PM

I can't imagine that it would be any different from any other digital camera in this regard.
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#3 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 04:24 PM

I word worry that the image might be too "clean." I for one always enjoy the grain/texture in b/w films and photography. Granted, that can be addressed, though I'd not say fixed, with post effects, it is worth while to keep in mind.
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#4 Joe Taylor

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 04:48 PM

I can't imagine that it would be any different from any other digital camera in this regard.


This is what I thought and I hope your are right.

Canon (don't know about other DLSR's) have a setting where you can shoot "B&W" images using good old fashioned #29, #16 and all the other traditional B&W filters. Results are pretty good. Like Adrian said, the images are "too clean." This is even more critical with moving images. The grain and texture is what gives B&W film its character.

Not sure if RED offers this sort of setting like Canon, but I can work with the image in post (kind of defeats the purpose of shooting B&W, really.

Maybe I should suggest shooting B&W film and get the real thing. But then I won't be making money with my RED on this job. Kind of a catch 22.
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#5 Sam Wells

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 04:55 PM

I can't imagine that it would be any different from any other digital camera in this regard.



Given sensitivity, s/n , DR, I can't either. Beyond that it's all about what you do with the image in post.

If I had one available it's one of the first things I'd try.

I love shooting for B&W w/ my Nikon dslr - I prefer it to film in many respects.

-Sam
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#6 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 04:55 PM

A job is a job! At least that's my mantra everytime I pass by my SR3 and pick up an HVX or the like. .
It's just about using the right tools.
I like real b/w, though the lower asas of it might not give you the flexibility you'd get with shooting a red. The fastest stock I can think of (other than the orwo, which I've never used) is a 200 iirc.

Perhaps no money from the red on film; but surely parts of your kit can go out with a film camera (filters/mattebox/tripod etc.)
Also, I would say, if this is something which isn't going to go to theaters, well, you can probably get away without film. Depending on your style, try some classic soft/promist filters and the like to give it a 1940/30's glossy sheen!
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#7 Sam Wells

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 05:01 PM

T
Canon (don't know about other DLSR's) have a setting where you can shoot "B&W" images using good old fashioned #29, #16 and all the other traditional B&W filters. Results are pretty good. Like Adrian said, the images are "too clean." This is even more critical with moving images. The grain and texture is what gives B&W film its character.


You can shoot color RAW and then work with luminosity values.

Digital B&W can have another texture, the textures and contrasts of things you photograph and how you digitally process and work with them.

-Sam
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#8 John Sprung

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Posted 08 July 2008 - 08:04 PM

Of course you can filter it however you want and convert it to B&W in post. Its B&W conversions should compare to its color stuff about like any other single chip camera.

For really good B&W, though, what would be best is to have them make a special one skipping the application of the Bayer mask. They'd have to do all new software to process the plain monochrome data, but the result would be better resolution. Of course, that would be a special purpose B&W only camera.



-- J.S.
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#9 Stephen Murphy

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 01:41 AM

Ive shot with the RED in black and white for a short project thats in heavy CGI post at the moment. The results were very nice, but as was mentioned were very clean.
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#10 Hampus Bystrom

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Posted 09 July 2008 - 02:03 AM

I've seen some black and white RED-footage which I really liked. They had some sort of soft filter and added some grain and grittyness in post, really looked nice actually.
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#11 Peter Moretti

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Posted 19 July 2008 - 03:54 AM

Of course you can filter it however you want and convert it to B&W in post. Its B&W conversions should compare to its color stuff about like any other single chip camera.

For really good B&W, though, what would be best is to have them make a special one skipping the application of the Bayer mask. They'd have to do all new software to process the plain monochrome data, but the result would be better resolution. Of course, that would be a special purpose B&W only camera.



-- J.S.

John, I'm not really sure that this is true. By having the different color channels, in post you can differentiate different colors which happen to have the same intensity. For example a green and red striped shirt may not have enough differentiation between the stripes. But if you keep the color values, you can adjust each colors' B&W intenisity in post. Make the green a little darker and red a little lighter. Now the stripes will show up in B&W.

Converting from color to B&W can be as easy as setting the saturation to 0, or it can be rather complicated, where you empahsize certain colors in the conversion while de-emphasizing others. The differences can be very significant. They can make a subject look warmer, harder, older, etc.. So when planning a B&W finished product, you should still shoot in color, IMHO.

BTW, don't use colored filiters either, b/c they remove color values, which is information that you may need. Neutral density or graduated density filters are fine. And generally try not to clip the highlights, so use a histogram or zebras.

Edited by Peter Moretti, 19 July 2008 - 03:54 AM.

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#12 John Sprung

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 06:06 PM

By skipping the Bayer mask, you definitely pick up resolution, because every photosite is a full sample. You pick up sensitivity, because the density of the mask is gone. Just like with B&W film, if you want to differentiate between colors, you have to do it with filters ahead of the chip. That's the trade off, tweaking in post isn't an option. But unlike B&W film, you can monitor it on the set and choose your filters that way.




-- J.S.
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