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Shooting Stills with Film Stock


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#1 Chris Jordan

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 11:55 AM

Hello again,
I was wondering if someone could tell me how to determine if the film used for still photography is the same as the film stock one would shoot for their film.

IE: Taking still pictures of locations with the same film stock used for shooting the film.

Would taking stills using KODAK Gold 200 for example, be the same or close to KODAK VISION2 200T.

Or is all film the same?

Not being able to spend an enormous amount of money to get a 1000' roll of film processed just to test it, would shooting stills be a comparable test?

Thanks for the help
Chris.
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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 11:59 AM

As far as I know none of the Vision stocks have corresponding still stocks. Comes down to processing, really, and a few design differences; the Kodak still photo stock gets C41 and the vision 2 gets ECN-2
There have been discussions here before about this, I suggest using the search tool.

Also, why not get some 100' S16mm spools and shoot some tests if you're on a budget? Find someone witha bolex, or anything, and just give it a go on some over/under exposure tests. Should be not too much more than exhaustive still tests, and also, as films, well move, it'll give you an idea of over/under exposure in motion/with people, etc.


Also, Fuji offers a DVD showing their stocks and I'm sure Kodak does as well, just call and ask.
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#3 Chris Jordan

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 12:06 PM

As far as I know none of the Vision stocks have corresponding still stocks. Comes down to processing, really, and a few design differences; the Kodak still photo stock gets C41 and the vision 2 gets ECN-2
There have been discussions here before about this, I suggest using the search tool.

Also, why not get some 100' S16mm spools and shoot some tests if you're on a budget? Find someone witha bolex, or anything, and just give it a go on some over/under exposure tests. Should be not too much more than exhaustive still tests, and also, as films, well move, it'll give you an idea of over/under exposure in motion/with people, etc.


Also, Fuji offers a DVD showing their stocks and I'm sure Kodak does as well, just call and ask.


Thanks
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#4 K Borowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 02:22 PM

RGB used to process short lengths of ECN-2 (movie) film, then A&I did briefly (they've discontinued it as of May 31st), and Dale Labs in Florida still makes "slides from negatives", although this is done more often onto ECP from standard C-41 color negatives> They will process and "print" from ECN-2, but IIRC, they only process once a week.

With the closing of A&I's ECN-2 service, this seems to be a competitive market again, and I am gearing up to start ECN-2 processing in August of this year. Prices will be significantly less than those at A&I (see: http://www.aandi.com/mp_stock.htm ).

I haven't done a thorough cost-analysis yet, but figure 60c/ft. 35mm, 30c/ft. 16mm ECN-2 process only, 15c/ft. ECP 35mm 10c/ft. 16mm ECP. Pushes and pulls are an extra $5 setup, but we can do I think up to five rolls at a time, so if you need multiple rolls pushed the same amount, you only would have to pay one push charge.

The smallest increments we can do are 1/3 of a stop from standard up to +3 or -2 stops, and, oh yes, we can do full or partial bleach bypasses as well, again $5 setup charge up to 5 rolls. We can also do 4x6" RA-4 paper prints optically or from digital scans (probably $7-8 for high-res. scans) for 30c a frame.

We will be using a modified Wing-Lynch and processing the film on metal spiral reels, with pushes and pulls available. For now, we'll be using a slide copier with the ECP print stock and scanning negatives or "slides" with a Nikon 5000 film scanner.

I hope this service will be useful because, despite our Cleveland location, I am going to try to rig it so that film that is over-nighted to us will have scans e-mailed back the following day, comparable to dailies, and then the film will be shipped back however fast it is needed.

This will also allow for still photographers shooting publicity shots on the set to use the same stock as is loaded in the camera. We'll also be offering processing of up to 4 feet of 16mm as well for cheap camera tests.

Results aren't going to be identical to what you'd get with a roller transport MP film processor, as a Wing-Lynch is a completely different animal, but we are going to try to get the results as close to that of an RT processor as is humanly possible.


At this point we are actively buying 35mm short-short ends. I'm also interested in a source of short ends of ECP-2 print stock, ECN-2 & ECP-2 test strips, and small quantities of chemistry for these two processes. I'm looking for, at most, a couple of U.S. gallons at a time.


(Sorry to hijack this thread a little bit)

Edited by Karl Borowski, 13 July 2008 - 02:26 PM.

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#5 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 02:28 PM

I don't mind at all. Let me know when you get this up and running Karl, I'd love to load some sweeet kodak/fuji into my Nikons!


Are you going to be putting the film into canisters yourself or do we have to do that on our end before we send it to you? Never loaded my own film. . .I'm just used to grabbing illford and agfa by the cartful!
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#6 K Borowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 02:29 PM

We will be using a modified Wing-Lynch and processing the film on metal spiral reels, with pushes and pulls available. For now, we'll be using a slide copier with the ECP print stock and scanning negatives or "slides" with a Nikon 5000 film scanner, but we eventually intend to have a dedicated contact printer for making true VistaVision style contact prints or 4-perf contact prints. We can mount as slides or leave unmounted and sleeved. We have a dedicated E6 mounter that can imprint data and frame numbers available for no extra charge.
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#7 K Borowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 02:35 PM

I don't mind at all. Let me know when you get this up and running Karl, I'd love to load some sweeet kodak/fuji into my Nikons!


Are you going to be putting the film into canisters yourself or do we have to do that on our end before we send it to you? Never loaded my own film. . .I'm just used to grabbing illford and agfa by the cartful!


You got it Adrian.

I CAN load film into cannisters for you, although, again, I don't have any 35mm ECN-2 short-ends lying around. I am quite experienced at bulk loading though, if you'd like to send me some film with instructions as to the length, I'd be happy to do it for you free of charge, just shipping.

Just send the can, we have plenty of bulk-loaders lying around here. One problem though is that the loaders won't take more than 100-feet, so try not to send anything longer.

Website of the lab I'm working out of is: http://www.crphoto.net for a shipping address.

Also, I don't currently have a source of chemistry or print stock, so I'll need to track these down and fine-tune the process before I can officially begin service.

I just found out about A&I's closing a couple of days ago, and was able to talk Mark, the lab owner, into letting me use his extra Wing-Lynch for this purpose yesterday.

One other stipulation, because it is a Wing-Lynch that uses standard 35mm stainless spiral reels, I can NOT fit any more than a 36-exp. roll through the machine without the risk or marks or scratching.

Also, I cannot afford the cost of a 40L kit, so I am also going to have to convince a lab to sell me surplus chemistry by the U.S. gallon, which may not be easy to do. Same with getting a lab to sell me print stock by the 100-foot.

Final issue is figuring out a video-analyzer profile so I don't have to make ECP-2 print test strips and burn through a bunch of print stock just doing tests for proper color balance. If I can't figure one out, costs for ECP-2 slide-"prints" will probably be quadruple of what I've quoted just becuase of all the labor that the trial-and-error method entails.
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#8 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 02:49 PM

I'd only want 36 exposures anyway. I will let you know and ship out any short ends I happen upon here in Phila. I know a friend of mine had a couple thousand feet left over from The Lovely Bones.
If I can get some of that I'll surely send it you way for your tests.


e mail me whenever you'd like.
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#9 K Borowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:01 PM

I'd only want 36 exposures anyway. I will let you know and ship out any short ends I happen upon here in Phila. I know a friend of mine had a couple thousand feet left over from The Lovely Bones.
If I can get some of that I'll surely send it you way for your tests.


e mail me whenever you'd like.


Hey Adrian,

I'll look forward to receiving some film from you. Again, I'd be happy to load it for you, although that'd be an extra two shipping charges.

Ask you friend, assuming he's stored the film properly this whole time, and it's Vision or later, if he'd be willing to entertain an offer on all of the sub-100-foot ends he has.

I'm looking for both Kodak and Fuji ends, as well as a source of Vision Print stock and maybe some Agfa, Fuji, and Lucky ECP stuff too.

Would you be willing to be the "Guinea Pig" for the initial tests I do? I don't have any film here myself, otherwise I'd volunteer myself and my Nikon. . .


Regards,

~Karl
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#10 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:04 PM

So long as i can get some film and ends I'd be happy to be your test subject. I'll see what I can scrounge this week and next.
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#11 K Borowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:04 PM

Once again, in case you can't find the address on the site, it's:

CR Photo & Imaging
Attn: RGB A&I Services
19680 Center Ridge Road
Rocky River, OH 44116

I'm aiming to be operational as of August 1, but no guarantees.

Thanks for your interest.
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#12 K Borowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:06 PM

I'd only want 36 exposures anyway. I will let you know and ship out any short ends I happen upon here in Phila. I know a friend of mine had a couple thousand feet left over from The Lovely Bones.
If I can get some of that I'll surely send it you way for your tests.


e mail me whenever you'd like.


Thanks boss, one other stipulation, please please please please please shoot a grey card at the beginning of each change in lighting to make it easier to do color correction changes.

Let's make this happen!
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#13 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:15 PM

C'mon, how green do you think I am ;)

I'll use my Kodak greycard plus just for you!


I'll scrounge 'round see who has what in whose fridge.
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#14 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:17 PM

Hey Karl,

Definitely let me know when you're up and running. I already have a bunch of 5279 and 5218 bulk loaded for still photo, but I don't wanna shoot it until I actually have a lab that can process it.

cheers!
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#15 K Borowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:20 PM

Anyone interested in pushing, pulling, bleach-bypassing, or a combination thereof?

To my knowledge, I'm the only game in town that does that sort of thing with short lengths. Dale doesn't offer any of it :-)

I guess we can also offer cross processing in E-6 or C-41 although C-41'd be tricky as it is an RT processor, and that'd necessitate removing Rem-Jet beforehand.

I'm really hoping I'll snag a couple of set photographers who are fed up with shooting digital when there's hundreds of feet of free film being tossed on the set daily, who will give me regular work.

I'm really going to try hard to make this a reliable service with same-day turnarounds on scans from the negatives.
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#16 K Borowski

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:27 PM

One final thought: I'd appreciate if someone could steer me in the direction of a good steal on a Vistavision/4perf./3perf. contact printer.

In the mean time, slides from negs are going to have to be made usingn a slide copying attachment on a 35mm still camera which will entail the same loss in resolution that you'd get with an optical blowup/reduction or a slide dupe. I.e. it won't be as sharp as an emulsion-to-emulsion contact print.

Also, are there any takers on 4x6 or 5x7" prints from ECN-2? I'm considering doing some sort of tweak and having a custom paper process that will attempt to counteract the inherent low-con look of ECN-2 negatives printed onto standard-process RA-4 paper.
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#17 Matthew Buick

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:01 PM

I would ask too for your services because I'll be doing most, if not all, of my 35mm stills with movie film, but I don't think you or I have had the happiest relationship...
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#18 Chris Jordan

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 08:27 PM

I would ask too for your services because I'll be doing most, if not all, of my 35mm stills with movie film, but I don't think you or I have had the happiest relationship...


Since I started this thread I would like to thank you very much for not being able to give me any insight into my question. I hope you get all the business you are looking for, but I guess if there's anybody out there interested in answering my question at all that would be appreciated it. If not, I guess I will just have to start looking to other resources.

Thanks.
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#19 Bruce Greene

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:54 AM

Hello again,
I was wondering if someone could tell me how to determine if the film used for still photography is the same as the film stock one would shoot for their film.

IE: Taking still pictures of locations with the same film stock used for shooting the film.

Would taking stills using KODAK Gold 200 for example, be the same or close to KODAK VISION2 200T.

Or is all film the same?

Not being able to spend an enormous amount of money to get a 1000' roll of film processed just to test it, would shooting stills be a comparable test?

Thanks for the help
Chris.


Chris,

I don't believe the still stocks and motion picture stocks are the same. The motion picture stocks make a lower contrast negative than the still camera stocks. They also develop in different chemistry.

I don't know where to develop short rolls of motion picture stock now that A&I stopped this service. That said I just shot a movie in Eastern Europe (Georgia) and the still photographer from Tbilisi shot movie stock for tungsten lit scenes. But where will you process it? At home, of course! He uses a squeegee to remove the black backing and scans the film on a film scanner. He doesn't make slides.

So, all you'll need is a short end, a changing bag, a developing tank, a bunch of chemicals, and a sink and you're in business. Hope this helps sort of :unsure:

Good luck.

You know, I think the kodak Portra films kind of look like the movie film if you just want to try that. But you'll have to scan it yourself I think to see what it might look like in a DI. For a movie print, you're kind of out of luck.
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#20 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 05:18 AM

The Portas are really nice, but even then I think they have a bit too much contrast. But that's just me.
There's some Porta I shot in my "still" stuff. Nice film and lots of room to push the look later. But it ain't vision 2! lol
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