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HD for filmout


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#1 Ale Reynoso

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 12:16 AM

Hi:
I will problaby have the chance to shoot 24P HD (Sony F900) for a shortfilm that will end in 35mm print.
I have several doubts, but basically: wich is a recommended procedure to obtain an image that is technically ?correct? for a film-out?
I now I have to avoid crushed blacks and clipped highlights, using a flatter gamma curve (flatter than a tippical video gamma curve) and with propper exposure/lighting.
I´ve read advices to lift the blacks significantly to avoid noise (¿?), but I don´t think this would be true, unless you try to strech dramatically the shadows later in post. And then you will have noise because of the electronic gain with the blacks lifted or not.
I know I have to keep the detail very low or off.
What about colour?. I´ve read that Varicam´s FILM REC output has desaturated colours and the image looks underexposed when viewed on a regular calibrated monitor. Should I underexpose a little de F900? (wihout loosing detail in the shadows of course). Should I work with a desaturated matrix? What´s the problem if I work with the ITU-709 colour matrix? What about the color space from HD to film?

I know I have to keep the eyes on the back-focus more often (as this is critical when recording for a filmout) when there are temperature changes. And regarding focus: wich is the circle of confusion for HD to 35mm print?.

One more thing: I can´t get the 3:1:1 subsampling rate of HDCAM! I know that ?3:? is because it´s a 1440 format against 1920, but... :1:1? I don´t think it´s like NTSC DV!!! (¿?). I always thought it as 4:2:2?

Thank you very much
Alejandro
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#2 Christopher Santucci

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:42 AM

You should check with the company that will be doing the filmout. They generally have specifics about how to shoot footage in regard to recording mode, framerate, shutter, etc., and should have samples of other client's work in order to help you determine the best approach for color and contrast issues.

.
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#3 Andres Pardo aka Gral Treegan

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 12:13 AM

Hi:
I will problaby have the chance to shoot 24P HD (Sony F900) for a shortfilm that will end in 35mm print.

BEST LUCK FIRST OF ALL!!!

I have several doubts, but basically: wich is a recommended procedure to obtain an image that is technically ?correct? for a film-out?

HD CAM IS GOOD FOR FINISHING IN 35MM, SEVERAL MOVIES THAT END IN FILM WAS RECORDED WITH SONY HDCAM F900 SO DONT WORRY ABOUT THAT, JUST ASK YOURE POSTPRODUCTION COMPANY HOW THEY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE FOOTAGE, EVERY COMPANY HAS HIS MANNERS

I now I have to avoid crushed blacks and clipped highlights, using a flatter gamma curve (flatter than a tippical video gamma curve) and with propper exposure/lighting.

IM NOT A DP, IM A VFX AND DI SUPERVISOR AND I ALWAYS PREFER IF THE FOOTAGE COMES FROM HD CAM THAT THE DP WORKS LIKE A BEST LIGHT COLOR CORRECTION, HAVE DETAIL IN THE HOLE FRAME, BLACKS ARE BLACKS AND WHITES ARE WHITES BUT TAKING CARE THTA HAVE NO DETAIL LOSS.

I´ve read advices to lift the blacks significantly to avoid noise (¿?), but I don´t think this would be true, unless you try to strech dramatically the shadows later in post.

I NEVER HEARD ABOUT IT, YOURE GONNA HAVE DIGITAL NOISE WHEN TRY TO FORCE THE FOOTAGE 2 STOPS OR MORE

And then you will have noise because of the electronic gain with the blacks lifted or not.

TRY TO AVOID THE GAIN UNLESS IS A NARRATIVE OR DRAMATIC OPTION AND YOU WANNA THAT WAY IN THE FINAL PRINT

I know I have to keep the detail very low or off.

YOU MEAN THE DETAIL IN THE CAMERA MENU? KEEP IN THE FACTORY DEFAULT.

What about colour?. I´ve read that Varicam´s FILM REC output has desaturated colours and the image looks underexposed when viewed on a regular calibrated monitor.

I HATE VARICAM BUT ANYWAY YOURE GONNA WORK WITH SONY F900 NO? I FINISH A SHORT FILM WITH THIS CAMERA 2 MONTHS AGO AND I DONT FEEL WHAT YOU SAY, YOU NEED TO HAVE A COLOR CHART TO CALIBRATE THE TELECINE OR SCRATCH OR WHERE YOURE GONNA GRADE THE COLOR.

Should I underexpose a little de F900? (wihout loosing detail in the shadows of course). Should I work with a desaturated matrix? What´s the problem if I work with the ITU-709 colour matrix? What about the color space from HD to film?

YOU NEED TO ASK THIS TO YOURE DP, EVERY DP HAS HIS THEORY ABOUT IT, I THINK IS A MITH.

I know I have to keep the eyes on the back-focus more often (as this is critical when recording for a filmout) when there are temperature changes.

IS A GOOD IDEA TO CHECK THE BACK FOCUS, RECORD A FOCUS CHART AND THE CHECK THE HDCAM IN BIG MONITOR, MORE THE 19.

And regarding focus: wich is the circle of confusion for HD to 35mm print?.

PASS

One more thing: I can´t get the 3:1:1 subsampling rate of HDCAM! I know that ?3:? is because it´s a 1440 format against 1920, but... :1:1? I don´t think it´s like NTSC DV!!! (¿?). I always thought it as 4:2:2?

AS FAR AS I KNOW SONY F900 IS 4:2:2

BYE!
GT


Thank you very much
Alejandro


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#4 Ale Reynoso

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 02:22 PM

Thanks a lot!!
I´ll have your words in mind.
Best regards from Buenos Aires
Alejandro
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#5 Andres Pardo aka Gral Treegan

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 01:12 AM

Thanks a lot!!
I´ll have your words in mind.
Best regards from Buenos Aires
Alejandro


Alejandro!

Consulta en Cinecolor, ellos son muy buenos y te podrán ayudar a hacer tu corto posible.
abrazo desde DF
GT
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#6 Jonathan Bowerbank

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Posted 27 July 2008 - 02:51 AM

I'm pretty sure the F900 sampling is 3:1:1 only if your going to HDCAM tape. But it does send 4:2:2 if you're outputting to an external VTR from the HDSDI output. Which is why some do both at the same time.
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#7 Ale Reynoso

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 04:50 AM

Gracias de nuevo general!!
I know people from Cinecolor because we sent our S16 students films for development and postproduction to them. Have you worked with them? I will consult Georgina Pretto, who is in the DI department (and by the way, she is a remarkable DP) about HD to film requirements.

And Jonathan, thanks for your response. I think that too, but I cannot get the HDCAM compression anyway. Only 1/4 of the color information is recorded? (being 4:2:2 full luminance and 1/2 B-Y, 1/2 R-Y). I must be missing something...

Thanks again
Best regards
Alejandro
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