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Shooting Ekt 7285 for Tungsten


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#1 Ira Ratner

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 09:52 AM

For 16mm reversal, this is my only choice, right? So for indoor shooting with tungsten lamps, how do you correct? Can you correct with a filter on the camera? Or do I have to go with a different lighting solution?

One of my plans is to shoot Integral Hologram footage, which is a simple, more or less stationery (slight movement) subject sitting on a high-stool.

Since this footage (just a few seconds for each clip, exactly 180 frames) will be ultimately going to the Cine house anyway--to supply the hologram manufacturer with 180 still digital images for them to do their stuff--is there any difference in cost supplying the Cine house with negative, where the filmstock choices are so much greater? Or do they have to work from reversal?

It's a matter of cost, and each 100' reel I work with will have a number of these 180-frame clips on it.

And in case you didn't make the connection, this is why I drove everyone crazy with my "Building my own Dolly Tracks" thread. I need a semicircle track for the dolly to ride on do this hologram shooting.
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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 09:55 AM

The filter would be an 80A iirc, but you'll loose a lot of light! I know nothing of holograms or the like, but if you can deliver negative film instead I'm sure you'll find your life is a lot easier. Reversal, while beautiful, has a lot less latitude and speed than neg stock. 200T 7217 would be a great choice for VFX work as this seems to be.
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#3 Ira Ratner

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 10:30 AM

Thanks, Adrian. Losing the light isn't a problem, because like I said, it's small area of filming a simple subject, so I can really bathe him/her with light. Backdrop is pure black.

I understand about losing latitude using reversal, but I'm going to be doing this same thing, this same set-up, over and over again under controlled conditions--no variables. So it's not going to be a big deal doing some serious bracketing in the beginning to figure out my optimum set-up, since I'm only shooting like 4 second clips.

Finally, the hologram house definitely needs positive images, but you got me thinking of something:

Couldn't I give the cine house negative, they give it BACK to me as negative, and I simply reverse in Photoshop? (There's an automated process to do this with still images where you just get a beer and you come back when it's done.)

The main thing is, it's important that I be able to view the different takes for one particular clip before I send a final one to the hologram house. That's why I was thinking reversal in the first place:

For instance--say I do a party and shoot 20 people, a few takes for each. I process the reversal, view it on my editor/viewer, and cut the currect take for each person. I then assemble into a reel and send to cine house.

If it's negative, viewing it won't help. But if I can get it cine'd to negative and fix in PS (or better yet positive), I'm still cool.
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#4 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 10:37 AM

It depends then on they they need it delivered to them. You can quite easily take negative film and have it telecined to, say, DPX on a hard-drive. It's expensive, but produces a high quality file based format. Or, you can output to miniDV if you wanted to, so long as the hologram house can deal with it. All of these outputs automatically reverse the negative image, yielding a positive, as a replacement for the old fashioned "work print."

If they need film, you can have your film printed from negative to positive film, though this is a route I personally have never taken (all photochemical finishing).


Does the hologram house need a film-frame/series? or can they work from digital files?
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#5 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 10:45 AM

I should add, don't shy away from reversal, though as it's not that difficult. And it's true what they say, if you can expose it well, everything else is fantastically simple. The limited latitude is not really a downside, in controlled situations; but can be a bugger problem if you're outside shooting, say, documentary style w/o lighting.
I love the look of reversal film (for stills especially), but do recommend negative for VFX work, for the greater exposure range as well as the finer grain and ease of development etc. ..
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#6 K Borowski

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 12:18 PM

Keep in mind, with a daylight to tungsten filter, you're talking about two stops or so of light loss, so the already-slow 100 ASA film will be I think like 20-32. Sorry, I forget the exact factor off the top of my head.
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#7 K Borowski

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 12:19 PM

Dub

Edited by Karl Borowski, 09 August 2008 - 12:20 PM.

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#8 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 12:31 PM

I think it would rate @ an even 25, 100- 1 stop=50 -1 stop =25.
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#9 Ira Ratner

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 03:40 PM

The hologram house requires digital stills:

Because if you give them otherwise, they just split it into frames themselves. So I would rather do it myself. (And they don't take film at all.)

Basically, and this is a little hard to explain, the "basic" integral hologram the the way they do it is 180 images, either mounted on an 180-degree/semi-circle piece of plastic, or flat. It's illumianted, and as you walk by it, you view the 180 frames that I shot of the action. All viewing angles show the 3-D effect, but the most prominent is dead center, at 90 degrees.

So if you walked from right to left, the subject would be blowing you a kiss and then waving goodbye at the end. Walk the other way, and it's reversed, which doesn't make sense. So it's important that your "movie" is directed with this in mind.

Also, since it's a hologram, the high standards and quality of film reproduction don't necessarily "matter" here, since there's no way to replicate that quality in a hologram anyway.

I've done a lot of reversal work (35mm still) in the past, so I totally understand that you have maybe 1/2 stop of latitude. But like we all agree, under controlled condtions indoors and testing, no big deal to get it right.

Does that filter affect the rangefinder viewing?

Edited by Ira Ratner, 09 August 2008 - 03:44 PM.

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#10 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 03:55 PM

I don't think it would effect rangefinder viewing, though anything TTL would be blue looking.

As for the post workflow; you can go video and export a tiff sequence of the bits you want, though i'd still try to higher quality to get it true progressive and so as to save from interlacing. Or you can go right out to HD as DPX, which is a form of still as I understand it (i think photoshop can even open it, but I'd talk to the post house).
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#11 Ira Ratner

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 07:37 PM

Well, today was payday--and I went on a real eBay jag. (For you Yurps...Europeans...wasps...that means a bender. A drunk. A spree.)

I ordered the Cokin P series holder and rings (a package) to accommodate a bunch of lens diameters, as well as the 80A filter for shooting daylight under tungsten. And I was fascinated to learn that Cokin offers THREE 80As--ligh, blue, medium blue, and dark blue.

I got the P020 for tungsten, whereas the other two are for halogen.

I think.

I also bought the K-3 battery conversion thingy.
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#12 Chris Burke

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:54 PM

For 16mm reversal, this is my only choice, right? So for indoor shooting with tungsten lamps, how do you correct? Can you correct with a filter on the camera? Or do I have to go with a different lighting solution?

One of my plans is to shoot Integral Hologram footage, which is a simple, more or less stationery (slight movement) subject sitting on a high-stool.

Since this footage (just a few seconds for each clip, exactly 180 frames) will be ultimately going to the Cine house anyway--to supply the hologram manufacturer with 180 still digital images for them to do their stuff--is there any difference in cost supplying the Cine house with negative, where the filmstock choices are so much greater? Or do they have to work from reversal?

It's a matter of cost, and each 100' reel I work with will have a number of these 180-frame clips on it.

And in case you didn't make the connection, this is why I drove everyone crazy with my "Building my own Dolly Tracks" thread. I need a semicircle track for the dolly to ride on do this hologram shooting.



Why not shoot with daylight balanced lights? Rate your film at 125 asa and shoot a gray scale to start things off. You can use a filter on the lens but it much easier to use bluer light to begin with. Use a color meter if color temp is that important.
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#13 Ira Ratner

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 09:34 AM

Why not shoot with daylight balanced lights? Rate your film at 125 asa and shoot a gray scale to start things off. You can use a filter on the lens but it much easier to use bluer light to begin with. Use a color meter if color temp is that important.


You're probably right, but I already have a few tungsten lamps, and I've been spending a fortune on this stuff as it is and my wife is reaching for the frying pan. Also, if what I have doesn't suffice or do the trick, I was just going to buy some inexpensive halogen work lights at Home Depot. Those would still require that filtering, correct?

I'm literally only going to be filling the frame from the top of a person's head to the waistline with a black backdrop, and since it's going to be a hologram, I don't even think color temp IS that important. Or maybe it will be VERY important.

That being said, what's the cheapest daylight solution out there for what I want to do with Ektachrome? I'm only talking three lamps tops, correct? Left, right and top?

The backdrop is a black semi-circle curtain, which will give me those sharp edges of the subject, which I want. The BIG question...

Where the heck do I position my lamps so they stay out of frame? But maybe I should move this to Lighting or I'll get yelled at.
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#14 Richardson Leao

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 05:06 PM

u have more options than ekta. Wittner in germany sells 64t fuji and 50d velvia (also fuji)

i imported from them from australia and i had no probs at all.

http://wittner-kinot...mm/16_filmm.php


You're probably right, but I already have a few tungsten lamps, and I've been spending a fortune on this stuff as it is and my wife is reaching for the frying pan. Also, if what I have doesn't suffice or do the trick, I was just going to buy some inexpensive halogen work lights at Home Depot. Those would still require that filtering, correct?

I'm literally only going to be filling the frame from the top of a person's head to the waistline with a black backdrop, and since it's going to be a hologram, I don't even think color temp IS that important. Or maybe it will be VERY important.

That being said, what's the cheapest daylight solution out there for what I want to do with Ektachrome? I'm only talking three lamps tops, correct? Left, right and top?

The backdrop is a black semi-circle curtain, which will give me those sharp edges of the subject, which I want. The BIG question...

Where the heck do I position my lamps so they stay out of frame? But maybe I should move this to Lighting or I'll get yelled at.


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#15 Ira Ratner

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 07:17 PM

u have more options than ekta. Wittner in germany sells 64t fuji and 50d velvia (also fuji)

i imported from them from australia and i had no probs at all.

http://wittner-kinot...mm/16_filmm.php


My German skills are lacking because of historical leanings (we can't talk politics on this site so I'll just end that here), but even without speaking German, what's the one thing here that doesn't make sense for a Yankee:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wittner: CHROME F64T
Hergestellt auf Basis von Fujichrome T64 Professional Film
16mm Kameraspule 30m / 100 ft., einseitig perforiert
ISO 64/19° Kunstlicht (3200K, ohne Filter)
ISO 32/16° Tageslicht (5500K, Filter Wratten 85B)
Entwicklung (E6) im Filmpreis nicht eingeschlossen.
Best.-Nr. 2139 - (41.93 EUR netto) 49.90 EUR brutto

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you spot it?

Guess what 49.90 Euros for 100' are in American bucks:

Way too MUCH.

Edited by Ira Ratner, 18 August 2008 - 07:19 PM.

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#16 Chris Burke

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 08:21 AM

the easiest and cheapest way for you to correct your tungsten lights for daylight film is to put CTB gel in front of the light. Whether you need quarter, half or full CTB is up to you and the particulars of the shot. This is very very simple and cheap. You could also buy daylight balanced CFL lights from any hardware store for less money than the gels, but they may have a bit of a green spike in them. Although many CFLs today have better color these days, many with a CRI of 82 or better. In either case, shoot a grey scale at the head of the reel so you can tweak the color accurately in post.

So in review, don't buy the halogens, buy either

1)CTB gels


2)Daylight balanced compact fluorescents, they are very cheap and crank out lots of soft light. They will say either daylight or have a number such as 5000k or higher to indicate the color temp.


good luck and don't hesitate to ask any other questions.
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#17 Ira Ratner

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 06:50 PM

Well, Chris--thank you for saving me a world of hurt.

Wanna buy a Cokin P-series 80A filter real cheap!?

I now consider myself enlightened, thanks to you.

Based on my current lamps, nothing will work with these daylight flourescents. Yeah, I also have some cheap aluminum bowl lamps which may or may not accommodate an adaptor for the FL bulbs, but they're pretty low-end. Most important, the low temp and comfortable working environment that these bulbs provide, plus incredible life, seems to make these awesome and perfect for what I need.

Tomorrow, at work (because I don't WANT to work), I'm going to go into Photoshop and work up my studio set-up for your input. Basically, I don't know how many watts I'll need for what I want to do, so if I get it on paper, you can help me take it from there. As I may have mentioned, I'm just shooting a seated subject on a stool, from waist to head, with the 100ASA reversal.

In the meantime, here are the products I found on eBay.

This one is 3-lamp, and gives you about 400 watts. I know I'll need two, plus whatever more. $75 bucks each, no stand--but I have stands already.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...id=p3286.c0.m14

Same deal and price here WITH stands, except with a soft reflector:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...id=p3286.c0.m14

There are some Korean sellers there with stuff too, but that's just a little too funky for me right now.

Edited by Ira Ratner, 21 August 2008 - 06:54 PM.

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#18 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 09:58 PM

The hologram house requires digital stills:

Because if you give them otherwise, they just split it into frames themselves. So I would rather do it myself. (And they don't take film at all.)



SO you are going to be scanning the film amyway, which to me means shooting negative and fliping the polarity at the scan stage. Use a handy ASA in Tungsten stock and be happy.
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#19 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 11:12 PM

My German skills are lacking because of historical leanings (we can't talk politics on this site so I'll just end that here), but even without speaking German, what's the one thing here that doesn't make sense for a Yankee:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wittner: CHROME F64T
Hergestellt auf Basis von Fujichrome T64 Professional Film
16mm Kameraspule 30m / 100 ft., einseitig perforiert
ISO 64/19° Kunstlicht (3200K, ohne Filter)
ISO 32/16° Tageslicht (5500K, Filter Wratten 85B)
Entwicklung (E6) im Filmpreis nicht eingeschlossen.
Best.-Nr. 2139 - (41.93 EUR netto) 49.90 EUR brutto

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you spot it?

Guess what 49.90 Euros for 100' are in American bucks:

Way too MUCH.



Hi Ira,
actually you would pay the 41.93 Euro 'netto' price - that is, without tax. But I agree it is sadly a bit too expensive. Whenever I have contemplated using it, I end up opting for cheaper alternatives. I like shooting reversal. I'd probably use blue gels on the lamps. But an 80 filter and shooting at 25asa would also be fine, especially if you are in a controlled situation and can light until you have enough to shoot. But you could also choose a tungsten colour neg stock and get a work print. I do this a lot and shoot the neg like reversal ... expecting that if the exposure isn't right in camera, then it will be wrong on the one light print ... so I just take care, as we reversal shooters do.
cheers,
richard
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Wooden Camera

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Visual Products

Opal

Glidecam

Willys Widgets

Metropolis Post

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Broadcast Solutions Inc

The Slider

Aerial Filmworks