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#1 Stephen Williams

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 08:37 AM

Hi All,

Build 16 was suposed to show a huge improvement in quality of the pictures & dynamic range, "like getting a new camera for free". Could anybody point me to any new & vastly improved footage? I would do some more tests myself but with build 17 expected soon that would seem like a waste of time

Stephen
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#2 Matthew Rogers

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 10:02 PM

Build 16 was suposed to show a huge improvement in quality of the pictures & dynamic range, "like getting a new camera for free". Could anybody point me to any new & vastly improved footage? I would do some more tests myself but with build 17 expected soon that would seem like a waste of time


I shot some footage at night on a football field a few hours after build 16 came out along side a camera with build 15 on it. The other camera had a Angux. 25-250 HR on it and I had a Cooke 20-60 on mine. Since they were shooting at about 110mm, I chose to go to 2k to bump up the zoom so the shots would be closer to the same FOV. Surprisingly, my footage probably had slightly LESS noise than the camera with build 15 (plus the face that I was shooting half the resolution.) I don't have that footage online right now to be able to show you though:( Generally, I feel like there is far less blue channel noise, with seeing it mainly less in the shadows and when I am shooting under tungsten. The best way to see, at least the different quality in noise, is to take a build 15 clip and push it and then do the same thing with build 16. The build 16 won't show uniform noise like build 15 will (I just checked to clips in RedCine to confirm this again, and build 15 was pretty nasty when you pushed it hard--lines and blocks of noise were common.)

Matthew
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#3 Stephen Williams

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 03:24 AM

I shot some footage at night on a football field a few hours after build 16 came out along side a camera with build 15 on it. The other camera had a Angux. 25-250 HR on it and I had a Cooke 20-60 on mine. Since they were shooting at about 110mm, I chose to go to 2k to bump up the zoom so the shots would be closer to the same FOV. Surprisingly, my footage probably had slightly LESS noise than the camera with build 15 (plus the face that I was shooting half the resolution.) I don't have that footage online right now to be able to show you though:( Generally, I feel like there is far less blue channel noise, with seeing it mainly less in the shadows and when I am shooting under tungsten. The best way to see, at least the different quality in noise, is to take a build 15 clip and push it and then do the same thing with build 16. The build 16 won't show uniform noise like build 15 will (I just checked to clips in RedCine to confirm this again, and build 15 was pretty nasty when you pushed it hard--lines and blocks of noise were common.)

Matthew


Hi Matthew,

I noticed an inprovement with tungsten lights straight away, but that not enough for me to justify a couple days testing. You don't mention anything about dynamic range.

Stephen
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#4 Matthew Rogers

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 10:32 PM

Hi Matthew,

I noticed an improvement with tungsten lights straight away, but that not enough for me to justify a couple days testing. You don't mention anything about dynamic range.


I wasn't able to test it on dynamic range at the time when I upgraded to build 16. That said, I have been very pleased with the DR even in build 15. I had one shot on a run-and-gun fun shoot I did back in late May that at first glance I thought was totally blown out. However, I was able to pull the shot down enough to recover all the highlights when the character walked outside. I don't normally try to push and pull on my image if at all possible, but I feel far more confortable doing that with the RED than any other camera I've used before (I'm coming from the broadcast camera work, not film.) The main thing I see with build 16 is the better pattern (or lack there of) of noise. That translates into more DR technically, but I haven't actually tested that yet.

Matthew
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#5 Andrew Stroud

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Posted 24 August 2008 - 02:15 AM

Hi Stephen,

Here is a low res example of a clip I shot recently.

http://www.flyingfis...T_CITY_H264.mov

Build 16
500 ASA
Master Primes and a Century/Canon 200mm

Offlined: FCP

Onlined: R3D rendered out as 1080 dpx seq
Graded on Baselight.

As Matthew said Build 16 appears to render more acceptable noise patterning than build 15 and therefore a more usable DR, you are not having to crush the image to get rid of the noise. I haven't done any extensive testing but the camera seems to be giving about 10-11 clean stops to work with now. The R3D files look great as do the proxies.

However the post route and work flow is an area that post houses need to address to get the most from the camera. We still seem to be plaugued by noise in the final render?

Anybody getting clean, noiseless and compression free outcomes from a DPX post route ?

Andrew.

Edited by Andrew Stroud, 24 August 2008 - 02:20 AM.

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#6 Keith Walters

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 06:36 AM

Hi All,

Build 16 was suposed to show a huge improvement in quality of the pictures & dynamic range, "like getting a new camera for free". Could anybody point me to any new & vastly improved footage? I would do some more tests myself but with build 17 expected soon that would seem like a waste of time

Stephen

I have yet to see any RED footage of any sort that has been shot by a real cinematographer and displayed in a realistic situation. Apparently there are a few RED-shot commercials shown on Australian TV, but nobody wants to say what they are???????

As September approaches I now face the awful prospect of losing a bet with an employee of a certain famous rental organization, that a feature film with at least 10% RED footage would be seen in mainstream cinemas by Sept 1! :(

Originally last year he bet me that there would not be any REDs delivered before March this year, which I thought somewhat unrealistic, because broadly similar cameras existed already. Then when he was proven overwhelmingly wrong, he started arguing the toss, claiming that the software was not ready and so on! Then he wanted to go "double or nothing" on when the first RED feature would come out, which I thought was another sucker bet, but I was wr-r-r-r-r-r-r-rong!!!! I was sure one of the Sodebergh films would have been out by now; nobody mentioned they were in Spanish!

As for Build 16 I cannot see how a new software build could make that much difference to the supposedly 0.5% removed from reality that the Fanboys seem to believe the RED already delivers. If a pixel gets overloaded there is no going back, no matter how many Algorithms you throw at it.

The only thing that Build 16 could possibly do is introduce some sort of noise "reduction" (actually disguising) which RED repeatedly claim is not spoken there.
The compression process must introduce noise reduction, for the simple reason that it is impossible to "losslessly" compress random noise. Perhaps this is the software equivalent of "Scientific Whaling" :lol:
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#7 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 06:48 AM

I have yet to see any RED footage of any sort that has been shot by a real cinematographer and displayed in a realistic situation. Apparently there are a few RED-shot commercials shown on Australian TV, but nobody wants to say what they are???????


A number of Irish commercials have been shot on a RED camera, however, I don't know which ones.

Edited by Brian Drysdale, 25 August 2008 - 06:50 AM.

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#8 Jim Exton

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Posted 25 August 2008 - 06:01 PM

I have yet to see any RED footage of any sort that has been shot by a real cinematographer and displayed in a realistic situation. Apparently there are a few RED-shot commercials shown on Australian TV, but nobody wants to say what they are???????


There was a Old Navy commercial I saw on tv that was shot on Red.
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#9 Keith Walters

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 07:18 AM

There was a Old Navy commercial I saw on tv that was shot on Red.

Not a brand sold here though, so no cigar.
I have been assured that RED-shot ads have been broadcast here, but always long after the event. Why is everybody so tight-lipped? Is it something to be embarrassed about?
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#10 David McLeavy

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Posted 09 September 2008 - 02:54 PM

I have yet to see any RED footage of any sort that has been shot by a real cinematographer and displayed in a realistic situation. Apparently there are a few RED-shot commercials shown on Australian TV, but nobody wants to say what they are???????


http://www.apple.com...ent/knowing/hd/

I've shot two spots on build 16 and the noise does seem reduced, or at least different in such a way that it LOOKS reduced. I'm happy with it so far.
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#11 Stephen Williams

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Posted 09 September 2008 - 03:05 PM

Hi David,

I am sure Knowing was shot with an older build than 16.

Stephen

http://www.apple.com...ent/knowing/hd/

I've shot two spots on build 16 and the noise does seem reduced, or at least different in such a way that it LOOKS reduced. I'm happy with it so far.


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#12 David McLeavy

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Posted 09 September 2008 - 03:11 PM

Hi David,

I am sure Knowing was shot with an older build than 16.

Stephen


Yep it was shot on 15 apparently. Keith said he hadn't seen ANY Red footage shot by a real cinematographer yet.
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#13 Keith Walters

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Posted 10 September 2008 - 07:45 AM

Yep it was shot on 15 apparently. Keith said he hadn't seen ANY Red footage shot by a real cinematographer yet.

No, I said:
"I have yet to see any RED footage of any sort that has been shot by a real cinematographer and displayed in a realistic situation."

By "Realistic situation" I mean in a cinema or on TV, where the originator of the footage has no control over how it is shown. That is where the difference between 35mm film and video starts to become painfully obvious.

I am not (0) interested in people's "Set piece" Internet downloads.

I used to for a company that sold video cameras; I know how to make a BS "showreel". If you stick to silk flowers and plastic fruit you could make a single-tube vidicon colour camera look good!

The challenge is to show something good that you shot because you had to, not because you wanted to.

So here we are. 1 year on, the first REDs are coming out of warranty, I still haven't a single TV show or movie shot with one. I may have seen an ad shot with one, who knows? If people have done that in this country, they're keeping it mighty quiet. All I ever seem to hear about from overseas is Indy films that I seriously doubt anybody is ever going to watch, 2-bit regional commercials, and music videos for people I (and the Internet) have never heard of.

Don't get me wrong, I would really love for this revolution to have happened, but as far as I can see the RED success story seems to start and finish with selling cameras, not footage.
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#14 John-Erling Holmenes Fredriksen

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Posted 10 September 2008 - 08:13 AM

http://dfilm.no/bild...ningfellen.html

Norwegian TV-series shot entirely on RED by one of Norway's most acclaimed DoPs. That company (dfilm) has specialized in building a cinema production package around the RED, delivering full support and a rolling digital filmlab to go on set.
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#15 David McLeavy

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Posted 10 September 2008 - 10:03 AM

No, I said:
"I have yet to see any RED footage of any sort that has been shot by a real cinematographer and displayed in a realistic situation."

By "Realistic situation" I mean in a cinema or on TV, where the originator of the footage has no control over how it is shown. That is where the difference between 35mm film and video starts to become painfully obvious.

I am not (0) interested in people's "Set piece" Internet downloads.


Gotcha, I misunderstood. In that case, the only things I've seen that were shot on Red on TV was a spot for that video game Condemned and I THINK a music video (only because they left the black sun effect in there).
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#16 Keith Walters

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Posted 11 September 2008 - 05:16 AM

http://dfilm.no/bild...ningfellen.html

Norwegian TV-series shot entirely on RED by one of Norway's most acclaimed DoPs. That company (dfilm) has specialized in building a cinema production package around the RED, delivering full support and a rolling digital filmlab to go on set.

I don't think local planning ordinances will allow me to put up a TV antenna high enough to pick up Norwegian TV though :lol:

I'm not saying nothing is shot on the RED. It just seems that whenever I ask for real-world examples I either get dead silence, or I am referred to programs and/or commercials that run in other countries or have been and gone. Success is measured in repeat business, not the honeymoon period.

Frankly I'm baffled. As far as I can see, the RED should be a good camera, and the price is right.
So why does the industry generally seem to ignore it. Is it still the workflow difficulties?

Or is it simply that too many of the people who have put together complete workflow packages are not the sort of people who tend to inspire confidence, in an already highly-strung industry?
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#17 Keith Walters

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Posted 11 September 2008 - 05:24 AM

And no, I'm not saying EVERYBODY who has set up a RED-oriented Post facility is like that, but bloody hell, could you imagine sitting next to some of the chuckleheads over in Reduser on a 12 hour flight somewhere? :P
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#18 Gary McClurg

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Posted 11 September 2008 - 08:11 PM

I don't think local planning ordinances will allow me to put up a TV antenna high enough to pick up Norwegian TV though :lol:


I know that certain parts of New Mexico... driving late at night or real early in the morning I've picked LA radio stations...

Maybe the high antenna might work.... :lol:
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#19 John-Erling Holmenes Fredriksen

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 02:45 AM

I don't think local planning ordinances will allow me to put up a TV antenna high enough to pick up Norwegian TV though :lol:

I'm not saying nothing is shot on the RED. It just seems that whenever I ask for real-world examples I either get dead silence, or I am referred to programs and/or commercials that run in other countries or have been and gone. Success is measured in repeat business, not the honeymoon period.

Frankly I'm baffled. As far as I can see, the RED should be a good camera, and the price is right.
So why does the industry generally seem to ignore it. Is it still the workflow difficulties?

Or is it simply that too many of the people who have put together complete workflow packages are not the sort of people who tend to inspire confidence, in an already highly-strung industry?


Again, this is Norway, and the rest of the world is probably different. But most of the big rental houses here have built complete and confidence-inducing RED-packages already, most of them with moving filmlabs that have extensive backup solutions. And it seems that the RED is very much taken into consideration for most drama and commercial work here. I know at least one feature going into production now on the RED, and more will most likely follow.

The DoP on that TV series was very happy with the RED, they hadn't had a single crash on the camera for the entire two or so months of the shoot, and he felt it was very inspiring to work with the "hourlies", as well as the safety net they provided if they needed to redo anything.

Judging by the amount of rentals putting together solid packages, educating DIT's to work for them, as well as production companies and post facilities building good workflows for the RED, I would say it's only gonna grow in Norway. But then again, that's Norway. We eat brown cheese, and enjoy watching men in the woods on skis for three straight hours.
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#20 Keith Walters

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 04:27 AM

I know that certain parts of New Mexico... driving late at night or real early in the morning I've picked LA radio stations...

Maybe the high antenna might work.... :lol:

"DX-ing" or the hobby of seeking out distant broadcasting stations used to be a very popular hobby at one time, and I think it still has a following. Freak atmospheric conditions occasionally open up a "tunnel" in the ionosphere which can channel low powered transmissions enormous distances.

("DX" was originally radio operator shorthand for "long distance", from the days when everything was sent by Morse Code, and every letter was extra work. Like U C on Txt Msgs:-))

Because US AM stations have a 10kHz spacing and most of the rest of the world uses 9kHz, there are "holes"in the spectrum that can be exploited for AM DX work. In the past I've been able to pick up US AM stations in Australia using a highly directional loop aerial and a special tuned preamplifier.

In your case, you are probably at the exact spot where the LA signal hits the ground after bouncing off the Appelton layer.

Unfortunately there is now so much radiated "hash" from all the electronic appliances we can't live without, that even local AM reception is becoming problematic, so I would imagine the hobby isn't what it used to be.

"Maybe the high antenna might work.... :lol:"
Not for TV transmissions, except under very unusual circumstances.
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