Jump to content


Photo

Day rate (rate/11) for a 10 hour day?


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 Jamie Metzger

Jamie Metzger
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 773 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco

Posted 09 September 2008 - 06:57 PM

I never understood this.

When I work corporate, to figure out my hourly rate, I divide my rate x 11 to find hourly; therefore I can find 1.5x and 2x.

I am hired for a 10 hour day though.

Is this because of an "hour lunch" what if I don't get an hour lunch?

thanks,
Jamie
  • 0

#2 Robert Starling SOC

Robert Starling SOC
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 101 posts
  • Steadicam Operator
  • Los Angeles and Las Vegas

Posted 09 September 2008 - 07:17 PM

Why not just quote your rate as hourly with a ten hour minimum? OT starts at eight hours 1.5x up to 12, 2x after that.
  • 0

#3 Brian Dzyak

Brian Dzyak
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1517 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Encino, California USA

Posted 09 September 2008 - 08:56 PM

Corporate, Industrial, Documentary jobs are typically billed out as a 10 hour day with the "lunch" period in that ten hours. In other words, the standard rate now for an HD Videographer is $700.00 for a guaranteed ten hours.

So when the clock starts, they have you for ten hours from that point until the OT clock starts at ten hours and one minute. Lunch is INCLUDED in that ten hour period primarily because the typical schedule (and EFP Producer) does not or cannot create a schedule that allows for an actual sitdown lunch that begins at some precise time and ends at some precise time. You get to eat when there is a break usually.

Also, this world does not always go the full ten hours. Sometimes it is just a one-interview day. Or two. Calltime may start at 11am and technically, they have you til 9pm, but if there isn't that much scheduled, you could be home by 3pm.

Some companies ask for a "half day" rate, but most professionals won't agree to that. The rationale from the company point of view is that since you're not working the whole day, they shouldn't have to pay for the whole day. The problem with that logic is that while the work may not last for ten hours, they've asked you to be exclusive to them for that day. On rare occasions, the calltime and "guaranteed" wrap will be such that you could "double-dip" and take a second "half day" job in the afternoon. But what if that first job goes long? Or if job two wants to suddenly move their calltime up? But what happens most often is that the calltime is mid morning, so by the time your half-day ends, it's already late afternoon and the chance to double-dip is nil.

So when we're booked for a full day or just one interview, they've bought our exclusivity for the day and that means a full ten hour day of pay minimum.
  • 0

#4 Satsuki Murashige

Satsuki Murashige
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3510 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco, CA

Posted 10 September 2008 - 06:14 AM

I never understood this.

When I work corporate, to figure out my hourly rate, I divide my rate x 11 to find hourly; therefore I can find 1.5x and 2x.

I am hired for a 10 hour day though.

Is this because of an "hour lunch" what if I don't get an hour lunch?

thanks,
Jamie

Jaime,

You should be dividing by 10 for your hourly. If you were hired at $500 for 10, then your hourly is $50, 1.5x is $75, 2x is $100. That's standard. If you work less than ten, you still charge your full day rate.

Usually, lunch on the corporates I've worked on have been 1/2 hr. You subtract that 1/2 hour from the # of hours you worked to figure out if you need to charge for overtime. So, if call was at 8am and you wrapped at 6:30pm, then that's 10 1/2 hours. Subtract the 1/2 hour that you took for lunch, and you end up with 10 hours. So you don't charge overtime in that case.

On occasion, if you have to work thru lunch, then you can count that 1/2 hour as worked. If I do that, then I make a note on my invoice for the producer and usually that's good enough. If they call you about it, then just explain that you worked thru lunch, etc. They may not want to pay it, in which case you have to decide how much you want to work for these people again and whether you really need the extra money or not. I've been in situations where I've let things go so I could get future work with the same people with no bad feelings, and I've also fought for the overtime when I felt it was deserved and didn't really care whether I worked with those people again or not. Usually it's somewhere in between, so it can be tricky to navigate. Also consider that if you're one of the relatively younger, less-experienced members of the crew (i.e. if everyone else is 35-60!), then you may be expected to charge less often for overtime, working lunch situations, etc. It kinda sucks but I've had a DP tell me once that "double overtime is not for you," meaning it's okay for the key grip to charge for it, but not the "camera PA" (even though I was really the camera assistant, since I was pulling remote focus, moving the camera, setting marks, etc).

Or I discuss the situation with the DP and see what he thinks before I send in my invoice. Sometimes, if the production company is the DP's good client and you have a good relationship with the person, then he may sometimes ask you to let things go. That might be okay if he gets you work all the time and looks out for you at other times. It's all very political at times...
  • 0

#5 Jamie Metzger

Jamie Metzger
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 773 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco

Posted 10 September 2008 - 07:05 AM

I understand the math of it; it's particularly IA work that I do, and a company that hires me through the hall, and outside venues as well. It's always been Rate/11, and since things are going pretty well for me with them, it's not worth the trouble. The work I do for them is more corporate event type stuff, general sessions, large audience with a podium speaker...etc. For all other gigs I do, I do the math you guys are suggesting.

Here is text from an actual email I got when i first started working for them:


"company" will pay temp employees a minimum 10 hour day unless we ask you in advance to work fewer hours.  The rate is broken down like this: Day rate/11=hourly rate for first 8 hours.  The next two hours are paid at OT.  If you work OT past 10, you are paid OT till 11 hours and DT 12hrs and above.


Jaime,

You should be dividing by 10 for your hourly. If you were hired at $500 for 10, then your hourly is $50, 1.5x is $75, 2x is $100. That's standard. If you work less than ten, you still charge your full day rate.

Usually, lunch on the corporates I've worked on have been 1/2 hr. You subtract that 1/2 hour from the # of hours you worked to figure out if you need to charge for overtime. So, if call was at 8am and you wrapped at 6:30pm, then that's 10 1/2 hours. Subtract the 1/2 hour that you took for lunch, and you end up with 10 hours. So you don't charge overtime in that case.

On occasion, if you have to work thru lunch, then you can count that 1/2 hour as worked. If I do that, then I make a note on my invoice for the producer and usually that's good enough. If they call you about it, then just explain that you worked thru lunch, etc. They may not want to pay it, in which case you have to decide how much you want to work for these people again and whether you really need the extra money or not. I've been in situations where I've let things go so I could get future work with the same people with no bad feelings, and I've also fought for the overtime when I felt it was deserved and didn't really care whether I worked with those people again or not. Usually it's somewhere in between, so it can be tricky to navigate. Also consider that if you're one of the relatively younger, less-experienced members of the crew (i.e. if everyone else is 35-60!), then you may be expected to charge less often for overtime, working lunch situations, etc. It kinda sucks but I've had a DP tell me once that "double overtime is not for you," meaning it's okay for the key grip to charge for it, but not the "camera PA" (even though I was really the camera assistant, since I was pulling remote focus, moving the camera, setting marks, etc).

Or I discuss the situation with the DP and see what he thinks before I send in my invoice. Sometimes, if the production company is the DP's good client and you have a good relationship with the person, then he may sometimes ask you to let things go. That might be okay if he gets you work all the time and looks out for you at other times. It's all very political at times...


  • 0

#6 Satsuki Murashige

Satsuki Murashige
  • Sustaining Members
  • 3510 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco, CA

Posted 10 September 2008 - 07:05 PM

I understand the math of it; it's particularly IA work that I do...

When did you get into the union, Jaime? Congrats, that's great!

I haven't heard of their pay system before, but if you're only doing it for them and you don't have a problem with it, then live with it I guess. Sounds like they just want to lower your overtime rate a little bit, though. Do these jobs often go over 10? And are you AC'ing or shooting?
  • 0

#7 Josh Bass

Josh Bass
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 552 posts
  • Other

Posted 11 September 2008 - 01:53 AM

I know this doesn't mean much since you're in the union and therefore have a whole other thing going on, but in Houston (don't know how people do it everywhere else), half day rates are not that uncommon. Granted, there are people who probably don't do them (those guys so in demand that the cannon possibly forsake a full day rate even for a half day's work), there are many who do (myself inlcluded). The half day is from 0-5 hours, full day kicks in technically after hour five, though if you're a nice guy and you get out of there fifteen minutes after, you could still call it a half (up to you). People generally don't actually charge half the rate of their full day for their half day rate, though, it's two thirds. So if you're a grip at $300/day, then your half day is $200. If part of your fee is labor, the other part gear, the way I do it is, gear rents at a day rate, period, labor is halved for a half day (instead of the 2/3).
  • 0

#8 Jonathan Bowerbank

Jonathan Bowerbank
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2815 posts
  • 1st Assistant Camera
  • San Francisco, CA

Posted 11 September 2008 - 04:33 AM

When did you get into the union, Jaime? Congrats, that's great!


You're not union yet, right Jaime? When you told me about that gig, I understood they were just able to get you on some IA gigs, is all. Which is still awesome, because getting in should be a bit easier for you, I would think ;)
  • 0

#9 Jamie Metzger

Jamie Metzger
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 773 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco

Posted 10 October 2008 - 06:56 PM

I've done about 6-7 IA shows since June. They were all through the company I work for, since they can request me through the Hall. I really have no interested in working for the hall, since there is an army of entry level people to wade through, and I do just fine without calling into the hall every week. I basically do the big shows where they need bodies (oracle, kenny chesney...etc).


Anyways, i don't think we answered this question, even though it is common practice to use this formula.
  • 0

#10 Serge Teulon

Serge Teulon
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 757 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • London UK

Posted 11 October 2008 - 06:09 AM

In the UK your LB is included in your hours. If you have a NLB then and you still finish at the agreed time, then it counts as an 1hrOT.
  • 0

#11 Jamie Metzger

Jamie Metzger
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 773 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco

Posted 15 October 2008 - 11:00 PM

Finally got an answer.


Anything after 8 hours is OT (in America).
2 hours of Time and half can also be referred to 3 hours of regular pay

8+3=11....simplifying the math I guess.
  • 0

#12 Brian Dzyak

Brian Dzyak
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1517 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Encino, California USA

Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:19 AM

Finally got an answer.


Anything after 8 hours is OT (in America).
2 hours of Time and half can also be referred to 3 hours of regular pay

8+3=11....simplifying the math I guess.


Well, that's the technically correct way that accounting does the math in order to follow the governmental rules when you are paid through payroll (with a payroll check that takes out taxes). BUT the normal freelance rates are based on a 10 hour rate. So if the going 10 hour rate is $700, OT is based on 1.5 x 70 for that first two hours OT and 2x70 for everything over 12 hours.

If the company wants to pay you through the payroll system, they will do the math so that it all somehow works in the 8 hour paradigm, but the gross SHOULD equal what you would be paid as if it were a ten hour day.
  • 0

#13 Jamie Metzger

Jamie Metzger
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 773 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • San Francisco

Posted 17 October 2008 - 09:03 PM

Well, that's the technically correct way that accounting does the math in order to follow the governmental rules when you are paid through payroll (with a payroll check that takes out taxes). BUT the normal freelance rates are based on a 10 hour rate. So if the going 10 hour rate is $700, OT is based on 1.5 x 70 for that first two hours OT and 2x70 for everything over 12 hours.

If the company wants to pay you through the payroll system, they will do the math so that it all somehow works in the 8 hour paradigm, but the gross SHOULD equal what you would be paid as if it were a ten hour day.


I'm sorry, I didn't even think about the difference with payroll and non-payroll.
The company I work for often are the ones that pay me for a 10 hour day, but they calculate my hourly using the math above.
  • 0


Wooden Camera

rebotnix Technologies

Rig Wheels Passport

CineTape

Opal

Metropolis Post

Tai Audio

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Aerial Filmworks

Visual Products

Willys Widgets

FJS International, LLC

Glidecam

CineLab

Abel Cine

The Slider

Paralinx LLC

Technodolly

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Ritter Battery

The Slider

Glidecam

Metropolis Post

Paralinx LLC

Opal

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Aerial Filmworks

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Wooden Camera

Technodolly

rebotnix Technologies

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

CineTape

Tai Audio

Ritter Battery

CineLab

Rig Wheels Passport

FJS International, LLC

Abel Cine

Visual Products

Willys Widgets