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4k Red Images at IBC


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#1 Stephen Williams

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 02:08 AM

Hi Everybody,

Last year during IBC I made my first very positive comments on Red images, after seeing "Crossing the Line". The improvement since then are truly unbelievable with regards to skin tones & dynamic range. The resolution in wide establishing shots is truely unbelievable. The Red one camera when used by a talented cinematographer, posting at a world class facility & viewed using a 4k Sony projector does produce excellent results.

I am looking forward to seeing Epic footage next year, my only negative comment is high speed 2k resolution sticks out, clearly having less resolution & less color fidelity. I get the feeling 3k cuts without issue so Scarlet footage could be good enough for many applications.

Exciting times,

Stephen
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#2 Jim Jannard

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 02:51 AM

Hi Everybody,

Last year during IBC I made my first very positive comments on Red images, after seeing "Crossing the Line". The improvement since then are truly unbelievable with regards to skin tones & dynamic range. The resolution in wide establishing shots is truely unbelievable. The Red one camera when used by a talented cinematographer, posting at a world class facility & viewed using a 4k Sony projector does produce excellent results.

I am looking forward to seeing Epic footage next year, my only negative comment is high speed 2k resolution sticks out, clearly having less resolution & less color fidelity. I get the feeling 3k cuts without issue so Scarlet footage could be good enough for many applications.

Exciting times,

Stephen


While we have come a long way in the past year, we have many more things to do to improve our program. We have been humbled by the complexity and difficulty of building a camera of this nature from ground zero. Our bravado represented our passion. Our newly found humility represents the reality of getting this far and realizing how much more work we have to do.

It is great to hear that you liked the footage. Your opinion carries a lot of weight. But rather than revel in your comment, we accept it only as further encouragement to continue to improve all areas of our program.

Jim
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#3 Alex Wuijts

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 07:09 AM

That was a very impressive presentation yesterday. Sitting in the front seat I was blown away by the shots, especially the one with the girl sitting at the table backlit by a very bright window. Can someone tell me why the brightness of the projection seemed a little too high, judging from the color bars at the beginning?
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#4 Stephen Williams

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 12:13 PM

That was a very impressive presentation yesterday. Sitting in the front seat I was blown away by the shots, especially the one with the girl sitting at the table backlit by a very bright window. Can someone tell me why the brightness of the projection seemed a little too high, judging from the color bars at the beginning?


Hi,

I did not think the projection was too bright, I don't think video bars have any relevance to the Red footage. There were no color bars on tonights presentation.

Stephen
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#5 Michel Hafner

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 09:31 AM

I loved almost all of the footage too. Some shots were jaw dropping. My favourite shot was a black man addressing a crowd in a hall, shot from below. Noiseless 70mm clarity. What a difference to all the examples shown on the 2K DLP.

Edited by Michel Hafner, 15 September 2008 - 09:32 AM.

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#6 Sam Wells

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 10:32 AM

. The improvement since then are truly unbelievable with regards to skin tones & dynamic range. The resolution in wide establishing shots is truely unbelievable.
Stephen


Hi Stephen, was this with a current firmware build, or Build 17 or was footage from both - or ?

Thanks

-Sam
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#7 Stephen Williams

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 11:18 AM

Hi Stephen, was this with a current firmware build, or Build 17 or was footage from both - or ?

Thanks

-Sam


Hi Sam,

It was all client material shot since the cameras launch, so various builds upto 15/16. Hi end post makes a huge difference IMHO. One clip was shot by David Mullen from his recent film Manure.

Stephen
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 11:27 AM

What a difference to all the examples shown on the 2K DLP.


Hi,

Arri also had some amazing images from a D21 & showed some S16 footage that had had a grain reduction done by a Canadian company. The S16 was indistinguishable from the 35mm 'b' camera. I viewed this the day after the first Red presentation but just before the second Red presentation, I thought they held up fine, clearly out resolving the high speed Red footage. I was in the front row for both screenings on Saturday, Row 2 on Friday.

Stephen
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#9 Michel Hafner

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 03:11 AM

Arri also had some amazing images from a D21 & showed some S16 footage that had had a grain reduction done by a Canadian company. The S16 was indistinguishable from the 35mm 'b' camera. I viewed this the day after the first Red presentation but just before the second Red presentation, I thought they held up fine, clearly out resolving the high speed Red footage. I was in the front row for both screenings on Saturday, Row 2 on Friday.
Stephen

(you must have sit practically next to me if you were in the middle)
Only the 'good' 4K RED shots were visibly better than any 2K material, but it shows the potential when people go for 4K and sharp lenses and optimal post production. There was also one shot that looked barely 720p. And most shots could benefit from more contrast from the Sony projector.
The degrained 16mm was amazing. First time I really liked the look of degrained material and saw no artifacts at first sight.
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#10 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 03:48 AM

Hi,

Arri also had some amazing images from a D21 & showed some S16 footage that had had a grain reduction done by a Canadian company. The S16 was indistinguishable from the 35mm 'b' camera. I viewed this the day after the first Red presentation but just before the second Red presentation, I thought they held up fine, clearly out resolving the high speed Red footage. I was in the front row for both screenings on Saturday, Row 2 on Friday.

Stephen


Did you manage to see the SI 2k screening?

I'm curious how it compares against windowed RED 2k.
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#11 Stephen Williams

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 10:52 AM

Did you manage to see the SI 2k screening?

I'm curious how it compares against windowed RED 2k.


Hi Brian,

Yes I did see it.

Probably about the same as the Red 2K, I was not impressed.

Stephen
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#12 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 11:15 AM

Hi Brian,

Yes I did see it.

Probably about the same as the Red 2K, I was not impressed.

Stephen


I suspected that might be the case once RED caught up with their builds. I guess they'll have to get a 3k chip into the SI to remain competitive for a 2k out for those productions needing a smaller 2/3" camera.
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#13 Jake Kerber

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Posted 16 September 2008 - 02:42 PM

Hate to hijack the 4K Red thread, but do you happen to know what s16mm filmstock was used in the Arri footage? Also, which lenses?

And, lastly, the name of the Canadian company that did the degraining work?

Thanks.
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#14 Stephen Williams

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 03:47 AM

Hate to hijack the 4K Red thread, but do you happen to know what s16mm filmstock was used in the Arri footage? Also, which lenses?

And, lastly, the name of the Canadian company that did the degraining work?

Thanks.

Hi,

It was a daylight stock so I assume 50 / 64 asa. I think master primes, zeiss for sure & not Cooke.

Not sure the name of the company, sorry.

Stephen
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#15 Thomas James

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 04:26 PM

I think that 3K displayed at 48 or 60 frames per second would offer the best compromise between spatial resolution and motion fidelity.
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#16 Stephen Williams

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 04:33 PM

I think that 3K displayed at 48 or 60 frames per second would offer the best compromise between spatial resolution and motion fidelity.


Hi,

The second time I viewed the demo, I felt I could tell which shots were 2k, 3k & 4k. The 3K & 4K I am very happy with. 2k seems to have less color information as well as quite low resoloution. I don't really understand why I dont like the colors, I am just saying what I saw with my own eyes.

Stephen
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#17 Jim Jannard

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 11:13 PM

Hi,

The second time I viewed the demo, I felt I could tell which shots were 2k, 3k & 4k. The 3K & 4K I am very happy with. 2k seems to have less color information as well as quite low resoloution. I don't really understand why I dont like the colors, I am just saying what I saw with my own eyes.

Stephen


3K has 2.25 times more resolution than 2K at 16:9, 4K has 4 times the resolution of 2K. One thing that we faced was having just enough 4K to choose from for the reel and not very much 2K submitted. Grading has almost everything to do with the color you saw. There is no color difference between 2K, 3K and 4K from the camera's standpoint.

Jim
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#18 Max Jacoby

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 02:56 AM

I don't really understand why I dont like the colors, I am just saying what I saw with my own eyes.

It's the same thing with 16mm, 35mm and 65mm, the higher the resolution, the cleaner the colors, especially in the shadows.
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#19 Stephen Williams

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 03:55 AM

It's the same thing with 16mm, 35mm and 65mm, the higher the resolution, the cleaner the colors, especially in the shadows.


Hi Max,

I think that explains why I have never really liked the colors from video cameras in the past & always pushed to shoot 35mm over S16.

Stephen
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#20 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 05:20 AM

Hi Max,

I think that explains why I have never really liked the colors from video cameras in the past & always pushed to shoot 35mm over S16.

Stephen


It's more likely the smaller colour space on the traditional video cameras you don't like. Unfortunately, you can't really now compare comparable sensors that are different sizes side by side. I suppose the nearest might have been 1" tube cameras against 2/3" cameras - the BBC used their EMI 2001 cameras on dramas well into the 2/3" age.

I suppose the closest thing to test this theory on would be a single sensor camera like the RED that offers both 4k and windowed 2k, but you could get into the "is this a video camera" debate. The other possibility that might come close, the F23 and F35, offers different types of sensor.
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