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Why most DOP's wish/glad they done documentary work in their early years


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#1 Daniel Porto

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 01:39 AM

I would like to know why most DOP's wish they had done documentary work in their early years, or glad that they did.

Reasons that instantly come to mind is that it teaches you to become much more efficient in terms of the speed of setting up shots (needed for documentary work) and also using available light where possible.

Do you learn more about nature of light in 'real' situations by shooting documentary?


I am very interested in hearing everyones thoughts and opinions
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#2 John Brawley

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 02:00 AM

I would like to know why most DOP's wish they had done documentary work in their early years, or glad that they did.

Reasons that instantly come to mind is that it teaches you to become much more efficient in terms of the speed of setting up shots (needed for documentary work) and also using available light where possible.

Do you learn more about nature of light in 'real' situations by shooting documentary?


I am very interested in hearing everyones thoughts and opinions



In many ways, documentary is one of the hardest forms of cinematography. You usually have to work alone or in a very small crew. You have less budget per minute. You often have only one chance to cover the event you're filming, which forces you to make decisions that will cover the storytelling. It forces simplicity.

You have to *listen* to what's happening in the case of observational style shooting and decide if you should roll or not. Where you should be, who you should be pointing at. The person talking or the person listening ?? Which would you do ?

You have to be active and ready all the time. You have to be aware of the *story* as it unfolds. You can't wait for a director to tell you what to shoot. By then it's already too late. You have a lot more stewardship of the story as it unfolds, because there's no take 2.

You have to shoot for the edit. You have to shoot sequences that can cut together. You have to anticipate. You have to be prepared in terms of gear. Autonomous and self sufficient. Batteries, lighting etc. You have to be a good camera operator. Things can change in a second. And you have to be *on* all the time.

Often the conditions are beyond your control in terms of lighting, but also control over when and where you shoot. You are often dealing with real people and real emotions. Real life. Anything can happen !

It requires great discipline, stamina, forethought and sensitivity.


jb
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#3 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 02:32 AM

I have so far DP'd 1 short documentary (should be being submitted to fests sometime soon), and am slated for another one. And, I can 100% agree with all of the aforementioned. It gives you a whole new way of approaching a space as well. Instantly looking at it and figuring out all the ways you'd cover event X if it were happening right now!
I also find that it had made me better and analyzing blocking due to the nature of using available light, as well as, on the scout, knowing what locations will work as is and what won't (because I had seen so many locations for this documentary).
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#4 Brian Dzyak

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 09:28 AM

In many ways, documentary is one of the hardest forms of cinematography. You usually have to work alone or in a very small crew. You have less budget per minute. You often have only one chance to cover the event you're filming, which forces you to make decisions that will cover the storytelling. It forces simplicity.

You have to *listen* to what's happening in the case of observational style shooting and decide if you should roll or not. Where you should be, who you should be pointing at. The person talking or the person listening ?? Which would you do ?

You have to be active and ready all the time. You have to be aware of the *story* as it unfolds. You can't wait for a director to tell you what to shoot. By then it's already too late. You have a lot more stewardship of the story as it unfolds, because there's no take 2.

You have to shoot for the edit. You have to shoot sequences that can cut together. You have to anticipate. You have to be prepared in terms of gear. Autonomous and self sufficient. Batteries, lighting etc. You have to be a good camera operator. Things can change in a second. And you have to be *on* all the time.

Often the conditions are beyond your control in terms of lighting, but also control over when and where you shoot. You are often dealing with real people and real emotions. Real life. Anything can happen !

It requires great discipline, stamina, forethought and sensitivity.


jb



Excellent explanation!

I run into some crew who have come into the business through the reality world and the thing I find most is that they aren't trained to work as an autonomous unit. Too many of them are used to having a "DP" set up the camera (settings) for them and have an AC help carry stuff around. In documentary, corporate, industrial, entertainment marketing, we have a crew of two (Camera and Sound) with a "Producer/Director" who doesn't really produce or direct much, particularly in terms of shot choice and overall look. The Cameraman has to think for himself, and know the situation well enough to anticipate what is going to happen instead of reacting to something and missing it.

Because of the limited crew and budget, we have to carry our own gear in and out of every situation and hope that we have everything we need that can fit on one Magliner because too often, there is no scout. Given that, the ability to step into a new location, sight unseen, and be able to figure out shots and a lighting scheme within minutes with only what we carry with us helps develop valuable efficiency skills that can be carried when larger projects pop up that require crew and equipment management (like a film DP does). As in, how do I choose a frame that will look appropriate to the topic and I can make look great given the equipment I have and the time I have to set it all up? I typically have under a minute to size the situation up then another thirty to fifty to achieve it...that means from equipment still on the cart to hand-on-switch. It's all about learning how to make the wisest choices given all the elements of the situation.

I've seen feature narrative film Cameramen fail in this smaller arena because they have been brought up to rely on a large crew, two forty foot trucks full of more stuff than they need, and more time than they are allowed. It's not that they can't light or shoot, but they can't light and shoot well under the more limited parameters. So starting out in a documentary type world and/or low budget indie world can serve as an incredible education for anyone who really wants to be a big time DP with all the fancy toys. :)
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#5 Daniel Porto

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 09:31 AM

In many ways, documentary is one of the hardest forms of cinematography. You usually have to work alone or in a very small crew. You have less budget per minute. You often have only one chance to cover the event you're filming, which forces you to make decisions that will cover the storytelling. It forces simplicity.

You have to *listen* to what's happening in the case of observational style shooting and decide if you should roll or not. Where you should be, who you should be pointing at. The person talking or the person listening ?? Which would you do ?

You have to be active and ready all the time. You have to be aware of the *story* as it unfolds. You can't wait for a director to tell you what to shoot. By then it's already too late. You have a lot more stewardship of the story as it unfolds, because there's no take 2.

You have to shoot for the edit. You have to shoot sequences that can cut together. You have to anticipate. You have to be prepared in terms of gear. Autonomous and self sufficient. Batteries, lighting etc. You have to be a good camera operator. Things can change in a second. And you have to be *on* all the time.

Often the conditions are beyond your control in terms of lighting, but also control over when and where you shoot. You are often dealing with real people and real emotions. Real life. Anything can happen !

It requires great discipline, stamina, forethought and sensitivity.


jb


I could not have received a better answer.

Thankyou
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#6 Daniel Smith

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 02:04 PM

My amateur input;

It's worth memorising a basic but essential work flow.

I'm filming footage for a documentary I'm making for a friends band right now and I now have a basic but reliable and constant workflow:

1. Make sure the built in optical filter (if any) is set to 1 (neutral).

2. White balance

3. Check the shutter is off (or at 1/50th depending on the camera)

4. Iris (manual or auto? Some people are scared to go auto as it sounds amateurish, but it's better to be safe then a hero with badly exposed footage because you thought you were good enough to alter it accurately as you go along)

5. Bars for my eye to adjust to the brightness level of the viewfinder and then switch bars off to see I'm exposed correctly (as eyes adjust, even if it looks exposed correctly it's probably not, this goes with any monitor)

6. Auto or manual audio levels for varied sound level, and of course the appropriate channels must be selected (ie. front, rear)

7. I normally leave the zoom servo on full speed or on fully manual so I can do a dive zoom, grab focus and whip straight out again. Often better left on manual as then you have the option to pull slow zooms if needed (for emotional documentary or something)


Pagbelts are so much better than batteries for documentary I find, they last so much longer and you can just take an IEC lead with you to charge it, as opposed to a full on charger which is a pain to lug around.

Plus they eliminate the battery weight on your shoulder, you can comfortabally wear them around your waist. On long shifts a large camera plus battery will kill your shoulder, and make it it hurt enough to be uncomfortable the next day, and unbearable the next. Not to mention your back.


But before any of that, check the back focus. You can't rely on the small viewfinder for focus on a wide, so you need to zoom in, and if the back focus is out you've had it. Also check black balance if applicable.

On some cameras you get variable white balance presets, it's worth setting these up well in advance aswell (ie. a. 3200k b. 4400 c. 5600)



All simple stuff I know, but it's amazing how many times I didn't go through these essentials thinking I didn't have enough time, until I learnt the discipline of being able to do this quickly, and get whatever I could get setup before hand.

Edited by Daniel Ashley-Smith, 14 September 2008 - 02:08 PM.

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#7 Daniel Smith

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 02:15 PM

forgot to mention this,

if you have a seperate boom op. and a stereo mix isn't important then record the audio in split track, the front mic to the left and the rear to the right. That way if something unpredictable happens you've got a backup track.
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#8 K Borowski

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 05:02 PM

My amateur input;

It's worth memorising a basic but essential work flow.

I'm filming footage for a documentary I'm making for a friends band right now and I now have a basic but reliable and constant workflow:

1. Make sure the built in optical filter (if any) is set to 1 (neutral).

2. White balance

3. Check the shutter is off (or at 1/50th depending on the camera)

4. Iris (manual or auto? Some people are scared to go auto as it sounds amateurish, but it's better to be safe then a hero with badly exposed footage because you thought you were good enough to alter it accurately as you go along)

5. Bars for my eye to adjust to the brightness level of the viewfinder and then switch bars off to see I'm exposed correctly (as eyes adjust, even if it looks exposed correctly it's probably not, this goes with any monitor)

6. Auto or manual audio levels for varied sound level, and of course the appropriate channels must be selected (ie. front, rear)

7. I normally leave the zoom servo on full speed or on fully manual so I can do a dive zoom, grab focus and whip straight out again. Often better left on manual as then you have the option to pull slow zooms if needed (for emotional documentary or something)


Pagbelts are so much better than batteries for documentary I find, they last so much longer and you can just take an IEC lead with you to charge it, as opposed to a full on charger which is a pain to lug around.

Plus they eliminate the battery weight on your shoulder, you can comfortabally wear them around your waist. On long shifts a large camera plus battery will kill your shoulder, and make it it hurt enough to be uncomfortable the next day, and unbearable the next. Not to mention your back.


But before any of that, check the back focus. You can't rely on the small viewfinder for focus on a wide, so you need to zoom in, and if the back focus is out you've had it. Also check black balance if applicable.

On some cameras you get variable white balance presets, it's worth setting these up well in advance aswell (ie. a. 3200k b. 4400 c. 5600)



All simple stuff I know, but it's amazing how many times I didn't go through these essentials thinking I didn't have enough time, until I learnt the discipline of being able to do this quickly, and get whatever I could get setup before hand.


Haha, this reminds me of the time someone asked me what I was using for still photography "these days": RAW or JPEG. . .
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#9 John Allen

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 09:20 AM

Well I think the reason why a lot of DP's might have wished they did more documentarys is, well because they probably heard that mr. deakins did. lol jk

No I think the reason is because documentary's, yes make you work faster. But also I think they really make you grasp how to shoot nature. Because a lot of documentary's that I see have a lot of nature shots. Then there's the low budget of documentarys, but don't get me wrong cause there are many documentary's that have big budgets, but most don't usually do.

The next reason might also be because docs are usually period pieces. And the reason why that would help you, is because it helps you really learn how to light with many different techniques. For example one documentary might be on the civil war, so you'll probably light it using warmer firelight gels. Then maybe you'd shoot another documentary during WWII, so you might aproach it by shooting in b&w, which will help you become very familier with using the right amount of contrast and greytones.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.
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#10 Daniel Smith

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 03:44 PM

Haha, this reminds me of the time someone asked me what I was using for still photography "these days": RAW or JPEG. . .

it's basic I know but so many people don't do many of these things. few people do the bars trick to judge exposure, they just go by whatever they think is exposed, which is often wrong. In the documentary scenario, there isn't time for light meters, so the exposure needs sorting quickly but with reliance.

little tricks the books won't teach you, like completelly removing the tripod arm so it doesn't grind the teeth. Most people leave it attached but loose.

Edited by Daniel Ashley-Smith, 15 September 2008 - 03:46 PM.

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#11 Brian Dzyak

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 05:58 PM

Well, these are all things one could do, but I certainly wouldn't want to chisel them in stone...

My amateur input;

It's worth memorising a basic but essential work flow.

I'm filming footage for a documentary I'm making for a friends band right now and I now have a basic but reliable and constant workflow:

1. Make sure the built in optical filter (if any) is set to 1 (neutral).


Assuming this is a video camera, the ND filter should be set to whatever is appropriate for the shot. If I have enough light and want to drop my depth of field down, I'll use more ND so that I can shoot wide open. The settings are all there as tools to use to achieve the desired look.


2. White balance


A good idea, but very often, there isn't a lot of time to do even that. IF you know what the camera presets will give you, then it is more than okay to sit in Preset for WB all day long unless, of course, the conditions change radically.


3. Check the shutter is off (or at 1/50th depending on the camera)


Again, whatever is appropriate for the look and the shot. I'll often shoot with the shutter OFF because I need the exposure. If I have it, I'll sit at 1/48. If I want a really different look for fast action and I have the light (such as being DAY EXT), I'll push it to the limits (like 1/2000). Shutter is just another tool to achieve a look. Knowing what these tools do is part of being a great Cameraman.

4. Iris (manual or auto? Some people are scared to go auto as it sounds amateurish, but it's better to be safe then a hero with badly exposed footage because you thought you were good enough to alter it accurately as you go along)

Auto iris is rarely a good idea primarily because it can roll unexpectedly if you pan or tilt quickly into a bright or dark area. That does look very amateurish. A far better method of maintaining proper exposure is setting zebras to 70% and the second set to 100%. That gives you a reference in the viewfinder so you can ride the stop if need be.



5. Bars for my eye to adjust to the brightness level of the viewfinder and then switch bars off to see I'm exposed correctly (as eyes adjust, even if it looks exposed correctly it's probably not, this goes with any monitor)

I'll stick with my zebras. :)

6. Auto or manual audio levels for varied sound level, and of course the appropriate channels must be selected (ie. front, rear)

IF I'm alone (no sound mixer), I'll have both channels on camera mic and set one to auto and the other one will be set arbitrarily. But usually there is a Sound Mixer. In that case, one channel is usually the camera mic on auto while the Mixer controls what happens on the other channel.

7. I normally leave the zoom servo on full speed or on fully manual so I can do a dive zoom, grab focus and whip straight out again. Often better left on manual as then you have the option to pull slow zooms if needed (for emotional documentary or something)

I keep my zoom set somewhere in the midrange. That allows for fast enough focus checks and I can control the speed of the zoom well enough with the rocker switch.


Pagbelts are so much better than batteries for documentary I find, they last so much longer and you can just take an IEC lead with you to charge it, as opposed to a full on charger which is a pain to lug around.

Plus they eliminate the battery weight on your shoulder, you can comfortabally wear them around your waist. On long shifts a large camera plus battery will kill your shoulder, and make it it hurt enough to be uncomfortable the next day, and unbearable the next. Not to mention your back.

But the problem with a belt is that you can't just put the camera down when you need to. Plus, the camera is not balanced correctly on the shoulder without a battery on the back, so more strain is put on the arm and shoulder to keep the front of the camera level. If you will have the time to switch out, Dionic 90s are a great way to go as they are lighter weight than a full Anton Bauer.


But before any of that, check the back focus. You can't rely on the small viewfinder for focus on a wide, so you need to zoom in, and if the back focus is out you've had it. Also check black balance if applicable.


Well, if you're going to white balance, you should also be black balancing too. And any time a new camera is picked up or lens changes are made, the back focus should be checked. Also check that during temperature changes at location.


Everyone has different ways to work that work best for them, but the primary lesson is that the camera is a tool and the camera has various tools on it. If they weren't adjustable, then they wouldn't be there to use. Every situation is different calling for different ways to use the tools, so knowing what the project calls for will help the Cameraman take the correct equipment and set it up properly beforehand.
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#12 Brian Rose

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 06:41 PM

As for why I love shooting documentary, it comes down to the old saying, "Creativity is problem solving." If that is true, then documentary is a helluva way to be creative. My thesis film is a documentary, and I'm serving as my own DP...and sound man, caterer, grip truck driver, etc. I elected to shoot in SD (XL2 24p widescreen), and early on gave myself the challenge of making the best looking SD documentary I possibly could. It's a great challenge to produce something aesthetically pleasing while working in conditions that, by their very nature, preclude the resources of a studio shoot. It's such a shame that (at least at the student level) documentary has become synonymous with the low budget, shaky cam aesthetic. It's lazy at best, and a cop out at worst. Unless there is a specific reason or necessity for it, I don't see why documentary can't strive to be as polished and professional as a narrative production.

Best,
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#13 Daniel Smith

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 02:46 PM

Well, these are all things one could do, but I certainly wouldn't want to chisel them in stone...



Assuming this is a video camera, the ND filter should be set to whatever is appropriate for the shot. If I have enough light and want to drop my depth of field down, I'll use more ND so that I can shoot wide open. The settings are all there as tools to use to achieve the desired look.




A good idea, but very often, there isn't a lot of time to do even that. IF you know what the camera presets will give you, then it is more than okay to sit in Preset for WB all day long unless, of course, the conditions change radically.




Again, whatever is appropriate for the look and the shot. I'll often shoot with the shutter OFF because I need the exposure. If I have it, I'll sit at 1/48. If I want a really different look for fast action and I have the light (such as being DAY EXT), I'll push it to the limits (like 1/2000). Shutter is just another tool to achieve a look. Knowing what these tools do is part of being a great Cameraman.


Auto iris is rarely a good idea primarily because it can roll unexpectedly if you pan or tilt quickly into a bright or dark area. That does look very amateurish. A far better method of maintaining proper exposure is setting zebras to 70% and the second set to 100%. That gives you a reference in the viewfinder so you can ride the stop if need be.




I'll stick with my zebras. :)


IF I'm alone (no sound mixer), I'll have both channels on camera mic and set one to auto and the other one will be set arbitrarily. But usually there is a Sound Mixer. In that case, one channel is usually the camera mic on auto while the Mixer controls what happens on the other channel.


I keep my zoom set somewhere in the midrange. That allows for fast enough focus checks and I can control the speed of the zoom well enough with the rocker switch.



But the problem with a belt is that you can't just put the camera down when you need to. Plus, the camera is not balanced correctly on the shoulder without a battery on the back, so more strain is put on the arm and shoulder to keep the front of the camera level. If you will have the time to switch out, Dionic 90s are a great way to go as they are lighter weight than a full Anton Bauer.




Well, if you're going to white balance, you should also be black balancing too. And any time a new camera is picked up or lens changes are made, the back focus should be checked. Also check that during temperature changes at location.


Everyone has different ways to work that work best for them, but the primary lesson is that the camera is a tool and the camera has various tools on it. If they weren't adjustable, then they wouldn't be there to use. Every situation is different calling for different ways to use the tools, so knowing what the project calls for will help the Cameraman take the correct equipment and set it up properly beforehand.

Some good points, but when I was saying about the bars to get a better idea of the exposure I meant in darker situations. In documentary you're using the available light, which might be dark and not very contrasty, rendering zebra as useless. But, it's just another method. I do both.

And of course the viewfinder needs to be setup correctly via the bars before anything else.

Interesting point about the pagbelt not easily being able to put the camera down, this is true as I found out, but today I was watching a small TV crew and I noticed there was an AC holding a dedo light, this could be powered by the pagbelt aswell, which is usefull for difficult lighting situations.

But I mainly like them more because you can charge them with just an IEC lead which you can easily take with you. The Anton chargers are a pain.


But, just from the point of view of someone who's learning this stuff right now, it's just practice getting setup quickly but on-the-fly documentary has taught me this more than anything else.

Edited by Daniel Ashley-Smith, 17 September 2008 - 02:48 PM.

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#14 Erin Henning

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 10:29 AM

This is just an echo of what has been already said, but I couldn't resist.

My documentary experience has mostly been on verite style shoots and interviews.

For me the best part about documentary shooting is working with real people. The person or persons that you are filming are not actors (I'm ignoring reenactments here). And what they are doing or describing is usually about their own lives. Their emotions are real and they are taking a chance by sharing them with you. As an operator you have to be able to connect with them. You have to be able to get the shots you need without being invasive or exploitive. For example, say you're shooting a doc about a team of doctors that provides free surgeries in a third world country. A new patient comes into the lobby right next to you as you are filming. A 6 year old boy who was hideously burned 4 years ago and could potentially have a life changing surgery in the next few days. You're going to want a "before" shot, but he's spent the last four years hiding his disfigurement in embarrassment and you also don't want to give the family the misapprehension that he has to go on camera in order to get surgery. What do you do? Your job becomes an empathetic dance coupled with split second technical decisions.

I love shooting documentaries not only because they help me sharpen my craft, but the good ones broaden my world view and challenge my assumptions about other people and myself.
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#15 Chris Keth

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 11:43 PM

Some good points, but when I was saying about the bars to get a better idea of the exposure I meant in darker situations. In documentary you're using the available light, which might be dark and not very contrasty, rendering zebra as useless. But, it's just another method. I do both.


Explain why that would make zebras useless. I'm not following you there. Zebras are like a lightmeter for video and you're losing me on how a simple measurement can be rendered useless.
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#16 K Borowski

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 02:07 AM

it's basic I know but so many people don't do many of these things. few people do the bars trick to judge exposure, they just go by whatever they think is exposed, which is often wrong. In the documentary scenario, there isn't time for light meters, so the exposure needs sorting quickly but with reliance.

little tricks the books won't teach you, like completelly removing the tripod arm so it doesn't grind the teeth. Most people leave it attached but loose.


Danny, you missed my implication.

I was saying that it is ironic how it is just assumed nowadays that documenataries are going to be shot on digital video.

Granted everything you say here is good advice, unless you have a RED :rolleyes:, and would have an equivalent in film lexicon, but I would've made it non-format-specific.


Yeah, be careful with lists though, you'll have a hoard of IT geeks questioning every bullet and biting your arm off if your list isn't 100% efficient :blink:
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#17 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 03:12 AM

Explain why that would make zebras useless. I'm not following you there. Zebras are like a lightmeter for video and you're losing me on how a simple measurement can be rendered useless.

I think Daniel is saying that in those low-key situations you may not have anything in the frame reading at 70 IRE, let alone 100 IRE. So the zebras won't tell you how much you're underexposing unless you use some other method...
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#18 Peter Jensen

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 11:21 PM

Documentaries can put you in amazing situations. When I was a film student at UCLA covering the California Primary election in 1968 and I found myself outside the Ambassador Hotel the night of the RFK assasination - I carefully observed every detail and came away with some serious questions. Nothing can match being out in the world in a documentary situation when things happen.
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#19 K Borowski

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 05:54 PM

Documentaries can put you in amazing situations. When I was a film student at UCLA covering the California Primary election in 1968 and I found myself outside the Ambassador Hotel the night of the RFK assasination - I carefully observed every detail and came away with some serious questions. Nothing can match being out in the world in a documentary situation when things happen.


Wow, you weren't the guy that shot *the* footage of the assassination, were you? I don't know his name, but, if I recall correctly, it was a student.
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#20 Peter Jensen

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Posted 21 September 2008 - 10:41 PM

[quote name='Karl Borowski' date='Sep 21 2008, 03:54 PM' post='251927']
Wow, you weren't the guy that shot *the* footage of the assassination, were you? I don't know his name, but, if I recall correctly, it was a student.
[/quote

We were only one of many people at the hotel, dozens of people with still cameras and 16mm news cameras - and we didn't shoot any footage because we had already blown through the 400 ft roll of film that was loaded in our 16mm Arriflex.

I was just arriving at the Ambassador when the shots were fired, and had heard the assasination on the radio. We immediately left the car and hurried <past a parked LAPD car> up the long driveway to the front of the hotel where people were emerging from the front entrance.

It seemed to take forever for the police sitting out in front of the hotel to finally drive up, I wondered if I should run back to the street and tell them what had happened. In the meantime people who had been shot were taken out the service door to the kitchen, RFK was the last one to bre brought out - he seemed to be dead, his shirt was open and his hands dragging. The paramedics put him in the back of the ambulance and left him there while they tended to the living - the others who had been shot, one in the head was lying on the sidewalk with his head resting on a waxed paper cup, one of the others seemed to have a bullet wound in his abdomen. I went to the back of the ambulance and saw Kennedy lying on the stretcher with his wife, it was ghastly.

People were leaving the hotel, dispersing into the night, many of them carrying cameras loaded with film, but most of these pictures were lost.

The important pictures were taken by a boy who was close to Kennedy at the time the shots were fired - they were taken from him and sent for safe-keeping as evidence in the pending prosecution, and finally released only several years ago, but they were also lost after release by the delivery service that picked them up for delivery.
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