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S8 Tri-x process as negative


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#1 alexandros petin

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 06:52 AM

Hello

I processed 2 tri x as negative last night and they came out green. It looks like the base is green,otherwise the negative is good.

I used the HC-110(4.5min 24C) and Ilford rapid fixer(10min 24C).

all my previous films have been developed that way (aprox 15-20 so far) with no problems.

I am 99% sure that it is a fixer problem but it was a fresh solution mixed from scratch and 10 minutes in.

could anything else have caused that?
could i put the films again in a fix solution fresh etc to make things better?

thank you
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#2 Simon Wyss

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 09:00 AM

Is it the old 7278 or the new 7266 TXR ?
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#3 alexandros petin

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 09:16 AM

The new 7266 TXR.
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#4 alexandros petin

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 02:41 PM

A sad update.( i cant get away with it in transfer)

I projected one film and the near the perfs and some area more is normal. The rest is green.

So i guess the spiral reel protected it somehow.

So what happened? Any ideas?
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#5 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 08:13 PM

A sad update.( i cant get away with it in transfer)

I projected one film and the near the perfs and some area more is normal. The rest is green.

So i guess the spiral reel protected it somehow.

So what happened? Any ideas?


This is an odd one. For it to happen to both the top and the bottom films (not just one of these) means that it is a chemistry/temperature/time issue, rather than a spiral loading issue ...
Yes, if the edges of the film that were in the spiral tracks weren't badly affected, it certainly sounds like the spiral protected those areas. If it was just one film affected and you had this sprocket edge affect, then I would suggest the problem had something to do with the film collapsing onto itself in the spiral such that it was touching and that the chemistry or washes didn't get to the film properly.
Certainly when you look at unprocessed tri-x reversal the back side of the film is green. I would take a small piece of this film and re-fix it to see if you can make a difference this way ...
cheers,
richard
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#6 Simon Wyss

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 05:02 AM

Okay - Kodak changed PXR and TXR's chemistry so as to comply with permanganate bleach in machines. PXR and TXR are not real reversal films but rather misused negative films. That is why they are made with a grey base. You see, we are entering a complicated story. It is not so very complicated though.

Real reversal films have mixed emulsions, one is the high sensitive (and mostly) panchromatic preparation for the temporary negative image, the other one the non sensitized low-speed preparation to yield to final (higher contrast) positive image. Also, reversal films have an anti-halation substrate, a thin layer of finely dispersed silver between the photographic layer and the colourless base. This silver substrate must be bleached and then dissolved away, otherwise you wouldn't see much of a picture when you process to negative. Now 7266 does not have a silver substrate but one of a different composition apt to potassium permanganate bleach baths.

To help you I can only say: agitation. The more you stir your bath the better and faster it acts. Enough agitation helps the fluid stream through between spiral and film. Be careful and switch from these films to Fomapan R. That is a lovely and old-fashioned film from Czechia. It's produced in 35, 16, Double-8 and Double Super-8. We processed ISO 100 Fomapan R since 1999.

To round off the horrible story let me mention that Kodak deliberately lies what concerns the characteristic photographic curve of PXR and TXR. The graphs are so plotted as to not interfere with the base density which is log 0.23. One gets the impression that the highlights of the reversed film are out of the film base grey. Certainly are the pure whites overcast by the grey base. Only a non coloured base is suitable in projection. When you scan you can correct for that electronically.
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#7 alexandros petin

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Posted 27 September 2008 - 10:26 AM

Hello again!
Thank you for your answers!

Both films have the same effect at the same level. Also both films have a nice fine grained image throughout the whole 50feet so it isnt a spiral loading issue.

I agitated for the first 30sec and then 15 secs each minute.

Very useful info Mr Simon Wyss. I had noticed the gray film base issue but most of times when projecting highlights (reversal film) came out fine. My impression was that in underexposed scenes the gray effect ate all the lighten parts of the image but they were underexposed anyway.

Unfortunately no Fomopan R in super 8. As an alternative i was thinking Orwo 54 from Wittner but i don't like the idea of loading super 8 cartridges myself. (jitter issues ??)

I will scan several frames later to post them. Later on im refixing and see what happens.
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#8 Regan Luke

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 05:34 PM

I'm trying the same process (Tri-X and Plus-X S8 developed in Microdol-X 1:3 for negatives) and I'm wondering if anyone has a time/temperature suggestion or a way to get the Anti-Halation layer off. Thanks a lot.

-R
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#9 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 06:08 PM

I'm trying the same process (Tri-X and Plus-X S8 developed in Microdol-X 1:3 for negatives) and I'm wondering if anyone has a time/temperature suggestion or a way to get the Anti-Halation layer off. Thanks a lot.

-R



Hi Ryan,
there is no issue with anti-hallation layers with these two stocks processed as neg. I can't help with the times, as when i process them as neg I use d76. But all you need to do is:

develop
stop (or just wash)
fix
wash

I also use hypo eliminator ... but that isn't necessary, just make sure the post fix wash is good and long.
richard
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#10 Simon Wyss

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 02:35 AM

Why does it have to be Super-8 ?

If Eight Millimeter, why don't you employ Double-8, there are so many fine cameras with a precision almost like 16 mm. I can offer several Bolex-Paillard H 8 Reflex, small pocket cameras, and more. Forget that plastic trash from the Sixties.
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#11 Richardson Leao

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 03:05 AM

Why does it have to be Super-8 ?

If Eight Millimeter, why don't you employ Double-8, there are so many fine cameras with a precision almost like 16 mm. I can offer several Bolex-Paillard H 8 Reflex, small pocket cameras, and more. Forget that plastic trash from the Sixties.


wittner also sells foma s8 by the meter
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