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Tungsten film in daylight with no correction


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#1 Adam Orton

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 09:37 PM

I'm shooting Vision2 100T stock (7212) outdoors with no correction
and I'm trying to get a slight subtle bluish hue to the film that's somewhat comparable to this:
http://www.celluloid...weather-man.jpg

I'm afraid it will look like this:
http://static.photo....LR-19085684.jpg

What are your opinions? How do I get it to look like the first frame?
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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 10:05 PM

That can easily be gotten in a color correction suite. Elsewise, you can use D film with a blue filter, you'd have to test which one as what's in the scene will effect it slightly, or you can use T film without fully correcting to daylight. Something like an 81 maybe.
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#3 Saul Rodgar

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 11:25 PM

As Adrian pointed out, that can be corrected in post digitally or in the printing stage if you are doing a print.

However, I personally think 7212 shot in daylight will look more like the Michael Caine picture than the one with the kid in it. The latter pic seems like 70's daylight-shot tungsten stock to me. But that is not the answer to your question. You can easily correct it in post.
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#4 Adam Orton

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 02:49 AM

I'll probably just shoot with an 85 then tweak it later. I was just curious because I don't have access to daylight film (don't ask why my school doesn't give us the choice), and the results I've gotten from leaving the white balance on a digital camera set to tungsten produce very blue images-like the second link I posted. It's probably because it's a digital camera and not film, but obviously I was curious to know what the difference was and what would happen if you applied that theory to the 7212 stock I was using. Thanks for the help.
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#5 Adam Orton

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 02:53 AM

Also, I've heard that The Shawshank Redemption shot tungsten outdoors with no correction while shooting or after and it produced images like this: http://img2.timeinc....shawshank_l.jpg

I really like that look of it, but I'm obviously nervous about shooting expensive T film uncorrected :-)
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#6 David Rakoczy

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Posted 19 October 2008 - 07:43 AM

I wouldn't play with the Blue Filters and 50D.. no need to cut your Stop to nil.. I'd use 100t uncorrected.. we do it all the time.. then you can add a slight 85 in TK as needed.

Don't be afraid. Shoot uncorrected. It is done everyday. ;)

Edited by David Rakoczy, 19 October 2008 - 07:44 AM.

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#7 Adam Orton

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Posted 20 October 2008 - 06:06 PM

I think I'll do that then. Thanks for all your help!
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#8 David Rakoczy

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 03:54 PM

Adam... be sure you rate that Stock at 100... seeing you will not be using the 85... then you'll want to overexpose a bit to smooth out Grain if that is what you want .. so I'd rate 7212 (shooting daylight without an 85) at 64 asa.
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#9 Adam Orton

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 04:15 PM

Adam... be sure you rate that Stock at 100... seeing you will not be using the 85... then you'll want to overexpose a bit to smooth out Grain if that is what you want .. so I'd rate 7212 (shooting daylight without an 85) at 64 asa.


Whoa, thanks :-) I'm also shooting a few feet of Grey card for telecining. Should I expose that normally at 100 asa in tungsten lighting then?
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#10 David Rakoczy

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 05:42 PM

You got it! ;)

I would not use just a 'gray' card... but a Gray Scale.. so there is White and Black on it as well. Call your Lab and they should send you one.

Edited by David Rakoczy, 21 October 2008 - 05:44 PM.

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#11 David Rakoczy

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 05:52 PM

(missed the edit window)

cont'd ... Ask for a Color Chart.

Also, be sure to shoot a Framing Chart at the head of the roll. Here is a link to a thread on shooting an (accurate) Framing Chart with your particular Camera/ Ground Glass.

http://www.cinematog...l=framing chart

Edited by David Rakoczy, 21 October 2008 - 05:52 PM.

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#12 Ira Ratner

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 06:45 PM

Also, I've heard that The Shawshank Redemption shot tungsten outdoors with no correction while shooting or after...


Hey, don't forget that the clip from the scene you posted was intensely and professionally LIGHTED.

Which IS correction, right?

They probably used T-balanced lights outdoors, minimizing the daylight temperature on the T film.

Just a guess, because even if you're shooting outdoors, that doesn't mean you can't light/balance for T.

I've done it a ton of times with 35mm still work, because I had T film already loaded in the camera.
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#13 David Rakoczy

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 07:31 PM

Ira,

They used HMI Lamps (5500k) or some Bouncing Sunlight Source(s) on those Exteriors... but shot without an 85. Lighting with Tungsten Lamps on an Exterior Set Up will give 'separation' between the talent lit in 3200k and the background lit in 5500k. Totally different. Basically, they just did a normal Exterior Set Up but shot without an 85 Filter... then minimized the Blue in the Grading.

Edited by David Rakoczy, 21 October 2008 - 07:32 PM.

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#14 Ira Ratner

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 08:55 PM

I understand--but my point is still kind of valid, right?

That lighting is still correction?
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#15 Adam Orton

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 01:22 AM

I understand--but my point is still kind of valid, right?

That lighting is still correction?


I guess it technically would count.

When I said "correction" I was referring more to the fact that they weren't "gelling the sun". :-)
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#16 Adam Orton

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 01:29 AM

Ira,

They used HMI Lamps (5500k) or some Bouncing Sunlight Source(s) on those Exteriors... but shot without an 85. Lighting with Tungsten Lamps on an Exterior Set Up will give 'separation' between the talent lit in 3200k and the background lit in 5500k. Totally different. Basically, they just did a normal Exterior Set Up but shot without an 85 Filter... then minimized the Blue in the Grading.


So they lit the entire exterior set for an even 5500k? That's really interesting and answers another question I didn't even know I had ;-) I can't wait to do some tests.
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#17 Mike Williamson

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 07:15 AM

From looking at the first still, I would very surprised if it was lit with tungsten lights. It was most likely lit with HMI's, matching the color temperature of the available daylight playing in the background.

If you're looking for a filter that will get you very close to that look, you could try an 85C which is a half correction filter for tungsten film in daylight conditions. As several people have mentioned, it would also be very easy to shoot without any filtration and achieve this look in telecine.

A good example of a film shot on tungsten stock under available daylight is "The New World, which was mainly shot on 5218. During a lecture I attended, Lubeszki talked about testing 5218 with an 85 vs. shooting without a filter and having the lab make the correction. He ultimately decided that he would shoot without the 85 because it gave a texture to the shadows that was more blue, "dirtier" and he felt more interesting.

I think the still from the "Weather Man" goes in the opposite direction and has a fairly clean look, where light throughout the frame is very consistent. For that reason, you may be better off using an 85C (or perhaps an 85) so that you have a "cleaner" negative to work with.
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#18 Adam Orton

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 05:13 PM

I suppose I should mention that I'm working with a barebones, hole-in-the-closet, sorry excuse for a telecine lab.

My school has their own transfer facility and they they normally transfer an excess of a 1000 student's worth of film every semester. Because of that, they treat the whole process like a McDonald's BigMac...you just sort of get what you get.
They tell students to shoot a grey card, then they correct that with their eyes (I don't know if this is how other labs do it, but I'm sure other labs use more than a grey card). They don't spend any time working with the directors and cinematographers to achieve any kind of 'look'.

Also, all of the footage I've shot with them so far looks ridiculously grainy (Even the low 100 asa stocks. I don't know if that's a by-product of their hurried approach, but it seems a little rough for 100 speed film.) I've even looked at the negatives under a magnifying glass and they seem to look fine. I don't understand why it looks so grainy on DVcam. This is probably a whole nuther post though.

Basically, I get what they give me. Since my final output will probably just be SD DVD, all the color grading will be done on an un-calibrated LCD monitor I have at home :-) I know you're all cringing.

Depending on how the film turns out, I'm definitely going to consider going to a good lab and getting an HD transfer...or something else that looks nice. But we'll see.
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#19 David Rakoczy

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 07:58 PM

Theoretically, they are teaching you with discipline... and that is good. Yes, you should deliver to them an accurate Framing Chart and Color Chart... then... everything after that is what you shot... for better or for worse. That is the way you learn. That is a 'One Light'.

However, it very well may be a crappy telecine machine they use so your dailies will not look as good as they should.

Welcome to the world of every DP... it is always something!

Edited by David Rakoczy, 22 October 2008 - 08:02 PM.

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#20 Adam Orton

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 11:44 AM

Theoretically, they are teaching you with discipline... and that is good. Yes, you should deliver to them an accurate Framing Chart and Color Chart... then... everything after that is what you shot... for better or for worse. That is the way you learn. That is a 'One Light'.


Very true.
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