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Wide Shutter Angle


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#1 Daniel McStay

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 05:52 PM

I need some help. Couldn't find any answer to this anywhere in the forum.

I'll be shooting an advert shortly on S16mm and want to shoot with a wide shutter angle. I am looking to achieve as much motion blur as possible, hopefully 355 degrees, but I want to stay at 25fps (in UK- PAL country ;) ).

I am shooting on an Arri SR3 or maybe SR2, depending on budget.

How easy is it to adjust the shutter angle on these cameras? Is it possible at all?
And more importantly: Is it easy enough for me to do it on a rental camera without breaking it?

A reference to what I'm trying to achieve would be the opening scene of Chungking Express, watch first 2 min: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=RvLGDrVHSck

Thanks in advance for any help.
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#2 Stephen Williams

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 06:26 PM

Hi,

It's not possible to shoot with a 355 degree shutter angle on a film camera. I suspect what they did is shoot at 6 or 8 frames a second & telecine or step print to get bach to speed. You will need to do some tests.

Stephen

I need some help. Couldn't find any answer to this anywhere in the forum.

I'll be shooting an advert shortly on S16mm and want to shoot with a wide shutter angle. I am looking to achieve as much motion blur as possible, hopefully 355 degrees, but I want to stay at 25fps (in UK- PAL country ;) ).

I am shooting on an Arri SR3 or maybe SR2, depending on budget.

How easy is it to adjust the shutter angle on these cameras? Is it possible at all?
And more importantly: Is it easy enough for me to do it on a rental camera without breaking it?

A reference to what I'm trying to achieve would be the opening scene of Chungking Express, watch first 2 min: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=RvLGDrVHSck

Thanks in advance for any help.


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#3 Daniel McStay

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 07:45 PM

It's not possible to shoot with a 355 degree shutter angle on a film camera.


Is it possible to widen the shutter angle beyond 180 at all?

Daniel
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#4 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 08:03 PM

Nope.

SHUTTER OPENING SECTOR, 180°, 172.8°, 144°, 135°, 90° , 45°

www.arri.de/prod/cam/tec_16sr.htm
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#5 Paul Bruening

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 11:06 PM

Is it possible to widen the shutter angle beyond 180 at all?

Daniel


The film has to pull down. Depending on the camera, that takes, roughly, about half of a shutter's rotation. You might be able to shave some off of the shutter, but not much. If you take too much off, the pull-down claw will still be moving through the film holes and cause some amount of undesirable movement in the exposing film.
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#6 Rob van Gelder

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Posted 27 October 2008 - 11:38 PM

" shave some off the shutter......"

That is the weirdest suggestion I ever saw..... well, almost.

180 degrees is the size/shape/angle of the mirror, the shutter is a separate metal piece that hides behind the mirror, adjustable to several pre-determined angles.

These shutters and mirrors and in this case for the camera's you are talking about, the SR 2/3, are balanced and adjusted to microns.
Paul, I don't know if you have ever been at Arri Munich in the repair shop, I have seen there guys adjusting and balancing these exact mirrors to 1/1000 of a millimeter, on special jigs with very sophisticated equipment. And it takes hours to do so!
Any imbalance will destroy the stability of the camera, bearings, and what more.

Don't even think about it!

If you want a 360-shutter effect on 25 frames I suggest you shoot digital, with an appropriate camera, or you shoot , as mentioned before, on much lower speed but with transfer to normal speed in telecine. (which means in effect doubling or tripling frames).
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#7 John Brawley

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 12:05 AM

A reference to what I'm trying to achieve would be the opening scene of Chungking Express, watch first 2 min: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=RvLGDrVHSck

Thanks in advance for any help.



This is usually done as stephen suggested, by shooting at a lower frame rate ans step printing it, either in telecine or on the film print.

You usually want to shoot a deriviate of the native frame rate you want. So for 25FPS telecine I'd shoot 12.5 FPS (half) or 6.25 FPS (quater speed). That way, when you step print it back to normal speed there's an even number of frames and no unsyncopated moments.

Once you've shot it, you get the telecine to playback at the same speed you shot the footage and hey presto...

I'd suggest for this look you want 6.25 or 6 if it's for 24 FPS telecine.

jb
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#8 Simon Wyss

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 04:16 AM

I have in fact a 35-mm motion picture film camera design which incorporates a 24 to 1 cycle ratio. This means that the 360 degrees of each cycle are divided into 14.4 degrees film advancement and 345.6 degrees film exposure. I have announced it in this forum under Classifieds: New Camera AONDA. The camera costs 180'000 Euro.
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#9 Stephen Williams

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:22 AM

I have in fact a 35-mm motion picture film camera design which incorporates a 24 to 1 cycle ratio. This means that the 360 degrees of each cycle are divided into 14.4 degrees film advancement and 345.6 degrees film exposure. I have announced it in this forum under Classifieds: New Camera AONDA. The camera costs 180'000 Euro.


Hi,

You say you have a design, do you have a working camera? Is it pin registered? The pull down would be as fast as a Photosonics 4ER, how loud is the camera & what power is required to drive it?

Stephen
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#10 Paul Bruening

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 08:36 AM

Don't even think about it!


Now, THAT is funny.
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#11 Daniel Madsen

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 01:30 PM

I think you can achieve an exaggerated motion blur effect using a pellicule mirror mod on some Panavision cameras.

Pellicle Mirror
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#12 Stephen Williams

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 02:05 PM

I think you can achieve an exaggerated motion blur effect using a pellicule mirror mod on some Panavision cameras.

Pellicle Mirror


Hi,

Some PV cameras will give you 210 degrees but can't be fully closed. The Pelicule has no effect at all the film has to advance and needs almost half the cycle to do that. Bear in mind the film has to start & stop it's not continuously moving.

Stephen
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#13 Simon Wyss

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:07 PM

Please read this topic: Cine Equipment Classifieds>New Camera AONDA. I don't have the camera yet. That's why I name the price beforehand. Look, this is so fundamentally new and different from what we use now that I will only disclose it to someone who is putting down half the price. I have offered it to Photo-Sonics, Aäton, Jannard and others. I'm in a hole like every pioneer, and I have learnt about the patent issue, believe me. Of course, one is curious about what possibly can be invented in film movements, I understand that all too well. It gives me sleepless nights time and again, and the Imax people never answered. They ought to be most curious because we could reduce the film's mass to one third. You know how much an Imax print weighs, don't you ? However, they seem to be wanting to switch to pixels.
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#14 Stephen Williams

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:12 PM

Please read this topic: Cine Equipment Classifieds>New Camera AONDA. I don't have the camera yet. That's why I name the price beforehand. Look, this is so fundamentally new and different from what we use now that I will only disclose it to someone who is putting down half the price. I have offered it to Photo-Sonics, Aäton, Jannard and others. I'm in a hole like every pioneer, and I have learnt about the patent issue, believe me. Of course, one is curious about what possibly can be invented in film movements, I understand that all too well. It gives me sleepless nights time and again, and the Imax people never answered. They ought to be most curious because we could reduce the film's mass to one third. You know how much an Imax print weighs, don't you ? However, they seem to be wanting to switch to pixels.


Hi,

I don't think there is much call for this feature, who knows if it will work in practice. Is it for a MOS camera or sync sound, what are the other specs. It's very expensive bearing in mind a Fries mitchell that can do 120 FPS sells for under $5000. The new Anton Penelope is under half your price.

Stephen
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#15 Daniel McStay

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:18 PM

Thanks a lot for fast and informative replies:)

Shooting digital is not an option on this project I'm afraid (actually I'm glad :rolleyes: ).
I'm gonna go with shooting 6.25 fps and bring it up to speed in telecine, so thank you Stephen and John for helping me out.

Your camera sounds very interesting Simon, but I can only wish I had the time or money to get the camera for this project:)

Daniel
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#16 Stephen Williams

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:41 PM

Your camera sounds very interesting Simon, but I can only wish I had the time or money to get the camera for this project:)

Daniel


Hi,

I am going for lunch with Simon tomorrow so I will have a better idea of what it's all about.

Stephen
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#17 Ramesh Jai

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:17 PM

Can someone please give me specific examples of situations where one might need higher shutter speeds? And what does a high shutter speed do to the image? Does it soften it by adding motion blur? Please be gentle. I'm a newbie to this forum.
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#18 Stephen Williams

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:22 PM

Can someone please give me specific examples of situations where one might need higher shutter speeds? And what does a high shutter speed do to the image? Does it soften it by adding motion blur? Please be gentle. I'm a newbie to this forum.


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#19 Stephen Williams

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 05:25 PM

Can someone please give me specific examples of situations where one might need higher shutter speeds? And what does a high shutter speed do to the image? Does it soften it by adding motion blur? Please be gentle. I'm a newbie to this forum.


Hi,

A higher shutter speed will give you a sharper image, a higher frame rate will give you slow motion & a sharper image. Filming liquids often benefit from a higher shutter speed & frame rate.

Stephen
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#20 Daniel Madsen

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:40 AM

Hi,

Some PV cameras will give you 210 degrees but can't be fully closed. The Pelicule has no effect at all the film has to advance and needs almost half the cycle to do that. Bear in mind the film has to start & stop it's not continuously moving.

Stephen


step printing it is then.
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