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Concerning E-6 processing


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#1 Guillaume Vallee

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 09:53 PM

Hi guys ! I was wondering during the E-6 process, can we put another wash step right after the Bleach step ? Because I'm always using my chemical more than 5 times per 2 L solution... they are working well except for my Fixer ; there's too much bleach in it (it's impossible to remove all of it while you put it in the other bucket), so it's why I was wondering if adding another wash step will ruine my stock.

Thanks

Guillaume
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#2 Paul Bruening

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 10:14 PM

Wash steps are dilution and time. Even if you get dilution benefits, you will get increases in time before the chemical bath. That's probably not very useful information. Just something to think about.

Karl Borowski has more still lab experience than most of us. Give him a PM.
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#3 K Borowski

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 11:40 PM

Wash steps are dilution and time. Even if you get dilution benefits, you will get increases in time before the chemical bath. That's probably not very useful information. Just something to think about.

Karl Borowski has more still lab experience than most of us. Give him a PM.


No need Paul. . .

I don't see it as being a problem. I know with C-41 I always had trouble with the bleach getting into the fixer. IDK if that is actually bad per se, but with all the talk I've heard about Kodak not being able to successfully devise a blix for film like they did with RA-4 (color paper) that the blix entering into the fixer probably isn't good.

Anyway, yeah, a wash in-between the two steps in E-6 should have no negative effects, except possiibly diluting the fixer somewhat with water carrying over into the fix tank. Shouldn't be a big deal if you run control strips and test for silver retention due to incomplete fixation.

What sort of machine are you using? An MP machine? Looking at your post though, sounds like some sort of manual dunk processing.

If you are, as I suspect, using the stuff one shot, and you're processing enough of it, perhaps you could consider some sort of replenishment scheme, at least with the non-developer steps.

Development is critical, but there's a lot more "play" in the other steps. After you reach completion, you really cannot overfix, or overbleach, like you can overdevelop. Only problem would be drastic extension of the times to the point where the chemical can't be fully washed out, which would lead to stability problems over the years.

You can actually just extend the time in a step to make up for it being exhausted or diluted by bleach carryover in the case of the fixer. Sorry, this post isn't 'my most coherent, but that should answer your questions.
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#4 Guillaume Vallee

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 02:12 AM

Thanks ! Actually I'm processing my stock at home with buckets ! I tried this morning to add another washing step between the Bleach step and the Fixer step and there was no negative effect ; i'm sure my Fixer won't be too much contaminated with Bleach now.
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#5 Simon Wyss

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 04:36 AM

I know that exactly this subject kept Eastman-Kodak worrying about their process for CRI. It was found best to install water spray jets from both sides in an empty machine tank.
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#6 Ira Ratner

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 03:38 PM

Back in the 70s and into the 80s, I used an E6 process with 35mm still film called Cibachrome E6.

It was only 3 chemicals, requiring 3 washes, and its required temperature latitude was within 2 degrees--which as you guys know, is a LOT of margin for error with this stuff.

It worked GREAT, and the volumes they sold at were perfect for infrequent at-home process. You bought a quart kit, but were able to perfectly mix its liquids into pints. I then had six pint size containers (three containing the chemistry and the other three holding the water/wash/bath). And no, it didn't ask for a running wash.

These 6 containers simply sat in water in a long rectangular Tupperware, in the sink, thermometers in each container, making it real easy to adjust the Tupperware container temp (adding hot or cool water) to keep all of the chemistry at the right temps.

The stuff was amazingly easy to work with, and with 35mm still, no big hassle with the tank. You just shook to agitate.

If I could find this kind of chemistry still available, only 3 parts, and a tank that doesn't send me to the poorhouse, I would give it a try.

I think a lot of people think that the tolerances for color processing are really, really tight--but they aren't for E6 reversal.

I had like a 96% excellent success rate, and to boot, I was stoned on pot most of the time.

Edited by Ira Ratner, 08 November 2008 - 03:43 PM.

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#7 K Borowski

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:31 PM

Back in the 70s and into the 80s, I used an E6 process with 35mm still film called Cibachrome E6.

It was only 3 chemicals, requiring 3 washes, and its required temperature latitude was within 2 degrees--which as you guys know, is a LOT of margin for error with this stuff.

It worked GREAT, and the volumes they sold at were perfect for infrequent at-home process. You bought a quart kit, but were able to perfectly mix its liquids into pints. I then had six pint size containers (three containing the chemistry and the other three holding the water/wash/bath). And no, it didn't ask for a running wash.

These 6 containers simply sat in water in a long rectangular Tupperware, in the sink, thermometers in each container, making it real easy to adjust the Tupperware container temp (adding hot or cool water) to keep all of the chemistry at the right temps.

The stuff was amazingly easy to work with, and with 35mm still, no big hassle with the tank. You just shook to agitate.

If I could find this kind of chemistry still available, only 3 parts, and a tank that doesn't send me to the poorhouse, I would give it a try.

I think a lot of people think that the tolerances for color processing are really, really tight--but they aren't for E6 reversal.

I had like a 96% excellent success rate, and to boot, I was stoned on pot most of the time.


Are you sure you aren't thinking of C-41? How the hell can you cram a process that should take at least five steps into three? I could see *maybe* having a B&W developer, bleach, light bulb-reexposure, color developer, but that would produce highly unstable results, (and technically the lightbulb should count as a step). If your bleach is even a little short you'll get retained silver that will blacken and reduce contrast. Not to mention, the light-bulb reexposure isn't something I'd be comfortable with as opposed to chemical re-exposure anyway. I was always paranoid about under-doing it when I did it with Foma R-100 film.
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#8 K Borowski

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:43 PM

I think a lot of people think that the tolerances for color processing are really, really tight--but they aren't for E6 reversal.


Well, the only thing that is critical really in any film process, except maybe Technicolor, is the developer. E6 has two developers. . . :blink:

If the time or temperature of the first is off, you won't get proper film speed. If the time or temperature of the second is off, or the pH of the second, or the concentration of the second, you'll get color shift. Pot'd help with 1st developer mistakes, and LSD'd help with 2nd developer ones ;-)

And if you don't bleach all of the silver out, and you go to project the E6, your image will fade away as the silver print-out develops right before your eyes on the screen. That's why bypassing a fix step is dangerous. It's a safeguard against retained silver

Sure you can be lucky, but when two out of the three steps are highly critical, and the third is pretty critical (until it goes to completion, so you could theoretically just really overdo it and it wouldn't be too critical then).

Now that I think about it even more, you *HAVE* to have four steps with E-6, not counting light re-exposure, because that wouldn't be a fix possible, like in a blix, with E-6.

You'd have to have some sort of color developer/fixer monobath as step #3, and that'd be really, really messy. I'll see if I can find more info on Ciba 3-step E-6 chemistry. I highly doubt it's made anymore, as it sounds like a rapid-access process, and that sort of application would have been replaced by Polaroid's instant slide process which has been defunct since digital its devastation of that field circa 2002.
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#9 Ira Ratner

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 08:49 AM

From Wikipedia:

Six-bath compared to three-bath

There are two families of E-6 processing chemistries. The original and standard that is used in commercial labs employs a six chemical bath process. The 'hobby' type chemistry kits (such as sold by Tetenal) use three chemical baths, the first developer, a combined fogging bath and colour developer solution, and the pre-bleach, bleach and fixer bath solutions. [1] However, the three step process suffers from poor process control (i.e. color shifts and color crossover), especially due to insufficient bleaching and/or fixing in the bleach-fixer ("blix") mixture.

Here's the link to the full page:

http://en.wikipedia....iki/E-6_process

I took the day off today to shlep my wife down to Miami, but when I get a chance, I'm going to research this old Cibachrome I used to use.
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