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Higher Saturation Looks


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#1 Spencer Hutchins

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 01:10 PM

I recently posted a thread about getting a lower saturated look, but what about the opposite?

Are there ways in processing to get more saturation?

And as far as filters, what are some specifics people use to help achieve this?

Also, are there any books the specifically deal with filters?

Thanks again fellows.
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 01:24 PM

I recently posted a thread about getting a lower saturated look, but what about the opposite?

Are there ways in processing to get more saturation?

And as far as filters, what are some specifics people use to help achieve this?

Also, are there any books the specifically deal with filters?

Thanks again fellows.


Much harder to add more color to an existing film stock and its inherent look than to take it away. There are some tricks but not to the degree that desaturation has.

Probably the most extreme trick is cross-processed reversal stock.
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#3 Spencer Hutchins

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 03:42 PM

Much harder to add more color to an existing film stock and its inherent look than to take it away. There are some tricks but not to the degree that desaturation has.

Probably the most extreme trick is cross-processed reversal stock.


I figured trying to add color to a film stock would be more difficult then taking it away. Thanks for the conformation!
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#4 Chris Keth

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 02:36 AM

The best you can do is to give a given stock a nice healthy slight overexposure from box speed. This won't add saturation, per se, but it will make the most of the stock inherent color qualities.
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#5 Joshua Jackson

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 02:53 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, David, but there are methods to give the impression of richer saturation. Besides adjusting elements external to the film itself (Production Design, Art Direction, contrast control via lighting), rating the film slower -in theory- produces a richer look in saturation due to the increase in the density. Needless to say, after thorough testing to resolve exactly where to rate the film.
To piggyback Spencer's initial question and spur it even further; what limitations does one run into when attempting (if attempting) to boost color saturation even more when choosing a higher-contrast/richer saturation print stock?
I need to take a more in-depth study to look at what repercussions emerge when a less saturated image on film is taking into DI, enriched in all colors or selective colors, and then printed onto a film stock with tantamount or more saturation than the original negative.
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#6 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 05:09 AM

AGAIN, start out with the right stock, 5279, 5260 for night work, 5245, 5246 or 5205 for daylight. Production, lighting and costume design optimized to take advantage of the higher contrast, higher color saturation stock capabilities. Push process up to 2 stops which WILL increase grain but there is no free lunch you just have to live with it OR it may actually help you create the look you want then print onto a higher saturation print stock. B)
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 10:58 AM

A still photographer friend showed me some saturated photos which involved pushing negative film two stops but NOT underexposing by two stops to compensate, so he ended up printing down a very dense negative.

Front light tends to enhance color.

Pola filters can remove glare that normally reduces saturation.

Color Enhancer filters increase red saturation.

Kodak Premier is the most saturated print stock.
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#8 David Rakoczy

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 11:51 AM

AGAIN, start out with the right stock, 5279, 5260 for night work, 5245, 5246 or 5205 for daylight.



Huh?

I use 17 for Night work. 12, 01 or 05 for Day. 17 or 12 for Interiors... I would not consider most of your choices as using the 'right' Stock... not to mention Vivid 160...
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#9 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 03:00 AM

KODAK VISION2 50D Color Negative Film 5201 / 7201 is a low-speed daylight film with an expansive dynamic range that delivers more detail in shadow areas ? even in high contrast situations. Advances in grain and sharpness ? found in all VISION2 Films ? make it ideal for recorder output and provide an ultra-clean, detailed image in any lighting condition.

Good dynamic range but not really a high saturation / high contrast stock.

KODAK VISION2 100T Color Negative Film 5212 / 7212 is the sharpest color negative motion picture film. With excellent flexibility and extremely fine grain, VISION2 100T Film offers clean and crisp images. And now, 100T Film also includes superior VFX capabilities. So you can shoot all your scenes for digital compositing on the same stock.

Again, no mention of color saturation or contrast and the picture shows rather muted color in both cases.

5205 was a stock I mentioned and for high color saturation and contrast may be a stronger choice that 01 or 12 in my opinion. 5245 was the predecessor of 5201 also a 50D stock but was more contrast and had stronger saturation, 5246 was a 250D stock as opposed to a 100T stock like 5212 that also had strong saturation and contrast qualities.

KODAK VISION2 200T Color Negative Film 5217 / 7217 is highly versatile and reliable. Offering excellent image structure under a wide variety of lighting conditions. And now 200T Film also enables you to shoot all scenes for digital compositing on the same stock. Giving you pristine edges and making VFX easier and more seamless than ever.

This is a 200T stock. certainly USABLE for night work but I feel a 500T stock is better for low light conditions and give you a more useful range of stop and light options which is why 5218 500T has become the defacto Hollywood workhorse in the last few years, also there are no exceptional color saturation characteristics associated with 5217 UNLIKE 5260 and 5279:

New KODAK VISION2 500T Color Negative Film 5260 offers benefits in both production and postproduction. This latest addition to the VISION2 Film family combines the best features from two successful product platforms. The new film?s rich, saturated color reproduction and contrast comes from the popular KODAK VISION Film family. Building on that foundation, VISION2 500T 5260 Film incorporates award-winning VISION2 Film technology, raising the bar for performance and productivity. The film?s finer grain makes it easier to capture shadow detail so you?ll spend less time fine-tuning low-light scenes in the postproduction suite. And improved linearity means more consistent color reproduction throughout the full range of exposures, which gives you greater flexibility in post and streamlines color correction. KODAK VISION2 500T Color Negative Film 5260. Two proven platforms. One exciting new film.

5260 was the replacement film for 5279 with a finer grain quality. NOW one must also bare in mind that Production, lighting and costume design play SIGNIFICANT roles in creating an ultra saturated look as well so a wide dynamic range film like 17 or 18 can be made to look saturated but why not start out with a stock that has a range geared to specifically to color saturation right off the bat if that's the look you want to achieve? If you're happy with the way your film looks saturation wise who an I to tell you it's wrong, but it's all subjective isn't it. For Blood Moon Rising, we will be using 5279 or the newly released 5260 (though because 79's been around a lot longer and is discontinued, I can probably get a MUCH better deal on 79 so more than likely it's gonna be 79). I say this because I've done the research on this already a little while back:

http://www.cinematog...n...345&hl=5279

http://www.cinematog...n...220&hl=5279

http://www.cinematog...n...874&hl=5279
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#10 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 03:11 AM

Since David Mullen was the primary mentor in these inquiries, and I find David's work exceptional, I tend to listen VERY closely to what he has to say, besides I also did other research in addition to the questions on this forum and they pretty much just confirmed what I had been told here but as I said, it's all subjective. B)
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#11 Spencer Hutchins

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 11:42 PM

I apologize for my ignorance, but can someone please take the time to help me out with reading film stocks.

I understand what the 50D, 500T are and know that 72=16mm while 52=35mm, but am unsure of the numbers that follow.
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#12 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 04:05 AM

The 2 numbers after the 52-72 prefix are the Kodak emulation designations. They repeat sometimes once they've been discontinued and sufficient time has passed but that will not effect or confuse you. The numbers with a T or D after them is the film speed or ASA rating T stands for Tungsten which means it's temperature rating is geared for tungsten light and if it were to be used under daylight conditions, color correction filters would be required unless you're going for a certain look. D stands for daylight temperature rating (Both of these are in Kelvins) and would also require filters if shot using artificial lighting.

NOW what you need to do is start READING! I would recommend Dominic Case's books, The Kodak Student Filmmaker Handbook, the Kodak website, David Mullen's cinematography, book the other recommended reading listed on this site as well as ANYTHING else you can get your hands on because it sounds like you've got a lot to learn and NO ONE is gonna do this for you. Film making is a VERY tough and VERY competitive business so if you want to make it, you need to educate yourself in as many aspects of the craft as you can. Don't stop asking questions but don't expect to learn to be a film maker without doing the work yourself, Capish? B)
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#13 Spencer Hutchins

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:24 AM

Capish James ;)
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